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I didn't read this as expecting simple answers to questions, but as the question being simple and instead of the person being asked giving a direct answer to th

by janj 4y ago

I didn't read this as expecting simple answers to questions, but as the question being simple and instead of the person being asked giving a direct answer to that question, instead they give an answer to a tangential question. I've worked with people who do this consistently. Know this I would try to formulate as simple and direct a question as I could, but always the answer would be to a tangential, often more basic question. At first I thought maybe the person was being condescending, answering basic questions that weren't asked, that anyone in my position should know. Maybe he was, I still don't know, but I refused to "believe" that. It's tricky suspecting something but forcing yourself not to believe that thing, but it was very helpful in that I was prepared to get past the initial phase of him not answering the actual question without it being contentious at all. I agree with OP, it does seem like a lot of people make no effort to communicate clearly.

BeetleB 4y ago
There are no shortage of such people - I've encountered a bunch. And yes, it's always a pain in the workplace. In my experience, this strategy: > Know this I would try to formulate as simple and direct a question as I could, but always the answer would be to a tangential, often more basic question. Always fails with them. At some point, you have to become humble enough to realize that your approach is flawed and look for alternative approaches.
- awillen 4y ago
  Or just keep hammering away with the same question until you get an answer. "What's 2+2"? In response, the person explains how addition is. "Okay, thanks for that context, but I don't think we ever actually got to the original question - what's 2+2?" The person tells you a story about something cute their kid did when learning addition. "Again, I think we're getting off track - can you please tell me what 2+2 is?" If they continue long enough, you need to start cutting them off or addressing the issue more directly. "I've asked four times what 2+2 is, and you've told me several stories about addition but haven't answered the question. Is there some reason you're not able to tell me what 2+2 is?" Repeat until you either get an answer to the question or an explanation of why the person you're asking can't answer the question.
  - roxgib 4y ago
    Unfortunately it's not always socially appropriate to do this, no matter how annoying the other person is being.
    - BeetleB 4y ago
      It's a workplace situation, and I think it's appropriate to say: "I've asked four times what 2+2 is, and you've told me several stories about addition but haven't answered the question. Is there some reason you're not able to tell me what 2+2 is?" In a party, perhaps not. I've often phrased it as: "I've asked four times what 2+2 is, and I still don't have an answer to that question. I'm afraid I cannot proceed with X until I know the answer to that question." Often, though, I've found that simply putting the burden on the other party unblocks them. It shifts their mindset from "I need to answer a question" (which they think they did) to "I need to solve this problem" (which they realize they haven't). "We need X. Can you sort it out?"
    - awillen 4y ago
      It's absolutely appropriate in the workplace. I'm not going to be mean or snide, but if I'm asking you a reasonable question and you're not answering it, I'm going to be increasingly direct. If I need information from you to do my job, and you're withholding it from me, then you're the one acting inappropriately.
      - BeetleB 4y ago
        > but if I'm asking you a reasonable question and you're not answering it, I'm going to be increasingly direct. And herein lies the flaw in your approach. It's reasonable to be annoyed that you're not getting the answer, but it doesn't mean your approach is helping you get there. It's the equivalent of "If someone doesn't understand me, I'm going to shout even louder" or "I'm going to use the same words, but speak even slower". There's no good reason to think that more directness is more effective.
quickthrower2 4y ago
Would be interesting to see an example. I’ve been on the receiving end of people who want their question asked exactly as worded, cross-examination style, and it is not fun. I wonder if it is that? If the other person doesn’t answer how you expected, then expect that, persist, be kind and be calm. Assume the best intents. They might actually be saying dumb things to help themselves make sense. Here might be an example: You: Why is the test suite taking 30 minutes now? Them: Did you run it last night? (Because they know something about the system state last night and want to check if the implied unhappiness about the test run length might be due to that)
- janj 4y ago
  It's never a cross examination or contentious from my end. One recent edited example: My question: "I'm trying to investigate why a request is failing, I found it in aws, the logs for [service] contain a stack trace up to where the [microservice] request is made, logs are very sparse. Is there a way to get [microservice] stack trace?" [I included links to logs and relevant info] His response is "Do you want a stack trace on every log? I assume dumping a stack trace is somewhat expensive (though I don't actually know if this is the case) so I would be hesitant to attach one to every log entry" Did I ask to attach a stack trace to every log? I guided him through the original ask and did receive some help. If this happened one time it wouldn't register, but his initial response here was very typical, something I got used to.
  - janj 4y ago
    Wanted to add for context, this question wasn't directed to him specifically, was posted in a general channel. I don't want to sound paranoid but based on his pattern of responses it seemed like this type of immediate response in a public channel was intended to influence other's perspectives. I'm not into the office politics games but I am aware that people play them.
    - travoltaj 4y ago
      Is this pattern of responses from him, the same to everyone, or just to you? If it's the former, it's probably just them and not office politics.

by janj 4y ago

BeetleB 4y ago

There are no shortage of such people - I've encountered a bunch. And yes, it's always a pain in the workplace. In my experience, this strategy: > Know this I would try to formulate as simple and direct a question as I could, but always the answer would be to a tangential, often more basic question. Always fails with them. At some point, you have to become humble enough to realize that your approach is flawed and look for alternative approaches.

awillen 4y ago
Or just keep hammering away with the same question until you get an answer. "What's 2+2"? In response, the person explains how addition is. "Okay, thanks for that context, but I don't think we ever actually got to the original question - what's 2+2?" The person tells you a story about something cute their kid did when learning addition. "Again, I think we're getting off track - can you please tell me what 2+2 is?" If they continue long enough, you need to start cutting them off or addressing the issue more directly. "I've asked four times what 2+2 is, and you've told me several stories about addition but haven't answered the question. Is there some reason you're not able to tell me what 2+2 is?" Repeat until you either get an answer to the question or an explanation of why the person you're asking can't answer the question.
- roxgib 4y ago
  Unfortunately it's not always socially appropriate to do this, no matter how annoying the other person is being.
  - BeetleB 4y ago
    It's a workplace situation, and I think it's appropriate to say: "I've asked four times what 2+2 is, and you've told me several stories about addition but haven't answered the question. Is there some reason you're not able to tell me what 2+2 is?" In a party, perhaps not. I've often phrased it as: "I've asked four times what 2+2 is, and I still don't have an answer to that question. I'm afraid I cannot proceed with X until I know the answer to that question." Often, though, I've found that simply putting the burden on the other party unblocks them. It shifts their mindset from "I need to answer a question" (which they think they did) to "I need to solve this problem" (which they realize they haven't). "We need X. Can you sort it out?"
  - awillen 4y ago
    It's absolutely appropriate in the workplace. I'm not going to be mean or snide, but if I'm asking you a reasonable question and you're not answering it, I'm going to be increasingly direct. If I need information from you to do my job, and you're withholding it from me, then you're the one acting inappropriately.
    - BeetleB 4y ago
      > but if I'm asking you a reasonable question and you're not answering it, I'm going to be increasingly direct. And herein lies the flaw in your approach. It's reasonable to be annoyed that you're not getting the answer, but it doesn't mean your approach is helping you get there. It's the equivalent of "If someone doesn't understand me, I'm going to shout even louder" or "I'm going to use the same words, but speak even slower". There's no good reason to think that more directness is more effective.

quickthrower2 4y ago

Would be interesting to see an example. I’ve been on the receiving end of people who want their question asked exactly as worded, cross-examination style, and it is not fun. I wonder if it is that? If the other person doesn’t answer how you expected, then expect that, persist, be kind and be calm. Assume the best intents. They might actually be saying dumb things to help themselves make sense. Here might be an example: You: Why is the test suite taking 30 minutes now? Them: Did you run it last night? (Because they know something about the system state last night and want to check if the implied unhappiness about the test run length might be due to that)

janj 4y ago
It's never a cross examination or contentious from my end. One recent edited example: My question: "I'm trying to investigate why a request is failing, I found it in aws, the logs for [service] contain a stack trace up to where the [microservice] request is made, logs are very sparse. Is there a way to get [microservice] stack trace?" [I included links to logs and relevant info] His response is "Do you want a stack trace on every log? I assume dumping a stack trace is somewhat expensive (though I don't actually know if this is the case) so I would be hesitant to attach one to every log entry" Did I ask to attach a stack trace to every log? I guided him through the original ask and did receive some help. If this happened one time it wouldn't register, but his initial response here was very typical, something I got used to.
- janj 4y ago
  Wanted to add for context, this question wasn't directed to him specifically, was posted in a general channel. I don't want to sound paranoid but based on his pattern of responses it seemed like this type of immediate response in a public channel was intended to influence other's perspectives. I'm not into the office politics games but I am aware that people play them.
  - travoltaj 4y ago
    Is this pattern of responses from him, the same to everyone, or just to you? If it's the former, it's probably just them and not office politics.