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Israel deploys remote-controlled robotic guns
- macmac 4y agoSensationalist heading. The guns are not robotic, only remote controlled and they "only fire sponge-tipped bullets and tear gas".
- tyingq 4y agoFair enough that it's not robotic, but the idea of an unmanned sponge-bullet turret in my neighborhood that would fire without notice is pretty sensational anyway. For whoever it's shooting at, it has the same psychological effect as a robot shooting.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> the idea of an unmanned sponge-bullet turret in my neighborhood that would fire without notice is pretty sensational anyway Isn’t it objectively better than lethally-armed soldiers?
- tyingq 4y agoI imagine that's a complicated question. Do people remotely controlling weapons naturally make the same kind of decisions as those looking right at people?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> Do people remotely controlling weapons naturally make the same kind of decisions as those looking right at people? I'm not sure. I could see it going both ways: de-humanised killers unleashed, or a lack of fight-or-flight prompted panics. Absent information on that, though, non-lethal is better than lethal.
- alvarezbjm-hn 4y agonon-lethal is still lethal.
- cronix 4y agoThere are plenty of US military drone operators that can answer that.
- tyingq 4y agoI'm not sure that's the best comparison. Regular pilots are even somewhat detached from the effect of their weapons. It's hard to compare directly to handling a gun.
- ceejayoz 4y agoThat was the idea behind cops carrying tasers. The reality wound up being that cops still use guns in the situations where lethal force was previously warranted, but they go for the taser in situations they'd previously have had to non-violently deescalate.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoI think it just adds to dehumanization of both sides.
- yucky 4y agoNo. First, it dehumanizes the target. You're effectively playing a video game. Second, it obfuscates the operator and makes culpability harder to assess.
- alvarezbjm-hn 4y agoWhy was this downvoted? Seems a honest opinion. I even agree with such opinion.
- BurningFrog 4y agoThey're manned, the man is just somewhere else.
- ISL 4y agoWorked well for the Milgram experiment.
- drisktradecover 4y agoWhat's Milgram experiment?
- ceejayoz 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
- kornhole 4y agoThe Milgrim study was not quite as bad as it seemed or was reported. A substantial proportion of the "torturers" had figured out that it was not real. Several more protested that it was wrong. Those who did continue were convinced by the researchers that what they were doing was for the greater good. However it did show that the separation of the executioner or torturer from the victim seemed to enable more viciousness. Collateral Murder video leak from Wikileaks may better exhibit this effect.
- colpabar 4y agoThey’re still going to be used against children though.
- 22SAS 4y ago
- jstanley 4y agoHow are they remotely-controlled if they're not robotic? A system of ropes and pulleys? I think you mean to say they're not AI, but they are still robotic.
- macmac 4y agoI am pointing out that the author is going for effect by writing "remote controlled robotic" when remote controlled would be sufficient. Something beyond remote controlled is implied by adding "robotic".
- kurtreed 4y agohttps://twitter.com/paulg/status/1540729921793708032 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1540729921793708032
- MSFT_Edging 4y agoThank god they invented a unique gun that can only fire sponge-tipped bullets at the occupied population. No way ever ever ever that this could be used in a slightly different, more deadly manner. Maybe they can even add sensors that shout "ow" when hit with rocks by children so they can document the reason for a use of force.
- bjourne 4y ago"only" Israel has killed babies with tear gas and maimed children with sponge-tipped bullets before. This will continue as there wont be any consequences at all for the sadists operating these guns. Previously they could at least be caught on film and the outcry would force some kind of investigation. Now there is not even that and no one will be held responsible for maiming children. This is precisely why the Israeli academy should be boycotted. Because it helps the Israeli regime develop these kind of extremely disturbing weapons. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/7/10/palestinian-baby-dies-from-tear-gas-inhalation-pa https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/7/10/palestinian-baby-di... https://www.dci-palestine.org/sponge_tipped_bullet_fired_by_israeli_forces_blinds_boy_in_left_eye https://www.dci-palestine.org/sponge_tipped_bullet_fired_by_...
- FormerBandmate 4y agoTear gas and sponge-tipped bullets are used by police everywhere, including New Zealand of all places. Al Jazeera is literally Qatari government propaganda and there’s substantial evidence that DCI Palestine is tied to terrorist groups (https://www.reuters.com/world/finnish-christian-charity-cuts-ties-with-palestinian-ngo-accused-by-israel-2021-11-05/ https://www.reuters.com/world/finnish-christian-charity-cuts...). Don’t let propagandists blow tragic accidents out of proportion to scapegoat the Jews
- ceejayoz 4y ago> Tear gas and sponge-tipped bullets are used by police everywhere, including New Zealand of all places. This is odd though, right? Using tear gas in war is a war crime, for almost a hundred years now. It's very strange that we permit its use on civilian populations.
- mechanical_bear 4y agoIt isn’t odd, you just don’t understand the motivation for inclusion on the banned list. It was outlawed due to the threat of miscalculation. Scenario: You see me launch tear gas, but think it’s mustard gas, you launch mustard gas in return.
- lucideer 4y agoI'm a little confused by this comment. What is your definition of robotic?
- macmac 4y agoThe writer means something beyond remote controlled, otherwise it would be redundant in the headline. That makes it sensationalist in my book.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- lrand10 4y agoUnmanned weapons have always been called "robotic": https://www.wired.com/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki/ https://www.wired.com/2007/10/robot-cannon-ki/ Many industry welding robots are also not exactly autonomous. There are bomb disposal robots that are remote controlled. We don't need to reserve the term for the T1000.
- ufo 4y agoGuns that fire rubber-tipped bullets can also fire lethal munitions. Of course they'd advertise the "non-lethal" version, but the implications are clear. Furthermore there has already been at least one Mossad operation where they assassinated someone with a lethal remote controlled gun.
- klooney 4y agoBut also- https://web.archive.org/web/20221017065507/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/middleeast/iran-nuclear-fakhrizadeh-assassination-israel.html https://web.archive.org/web/20221017065507/https://www.nytim...
- consumer451 4y agoDuplicate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33629496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33629496 47 points - 32 Comments
- sstein2 4y ago
- btbuildem 4y agoI really hope these get hacked and used against their makers with maximum brutality.
- bawolff 4y agoIsn't that just what a drone is? Hardly breaking news. Edit: seems like the headline burried the lead, that they are using this for non leathal force crowd control, which i can understand how that could be controversial.
- myth_drannon 4y agoAlso Elbit System released a promotional video on Lanius drones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4McPHBQ9pNw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4McPHBQ9pNw I find it very intersting how AI can augment modern warfare. Drones + AI wins wars with minimal damage.
- neon_electro 4y ago"minimal damage": https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/israels-non-lethal-sponge-tipped-bullets-cause-serious-harm-to-palestinians-1.220453 https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/israels-non-lethal-spo...
- bhouston 4y ago> Drones + AI wins wars with minimal damage. Or in Israel's case, according to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, maintain an apartheid system in a cost effective and efficient fashion. Kudos to them, they are pushing the state of the art here... https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apart...
- myth_drannon 4y agoAmnesty International lost its credibility after accusing Ukraine in war crimes while saying nothing on Russia. I group it with the BDS and other fake human rights movements.
- bhouston 4y agoAll human rights group are fake after they criticize your side. It is the rule right???
- MichaelCollins 4y agoOdd, I recall reading a book about 10 years ago, published a few years before that, about Israel using these sort of systems.
- mattxxx 4y agoA few thoughts: - Operation of the gun can be used as training data for AI - Eventually we won't know when the gun becomes completely guided by AI
- tartoran 4y agoIs that going to make the operators less remorseful?
- cendyne 4y agoAn anime called Psycho-Pass comments on this. A system existed to replace the remote view with a cartoonish environment with chicken characters so the operators would not receive psychological harm from operating a violet instrument.
- lardo 4y agoEnder’s Game comes to mind
- amanj41 4y agoThere was a Black Mirror episode with a similar concept where footsoldiers were implanted with a chip that made them see enemies as literal monsters
- bawolff 4y agoIts also the plot of a 90s star trek tie in novel for children where they had kids play a censored video game but were really exterminating the native population https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Highest_Score https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Highest_Score Anyways, its a reasonably common sci-fi plot.
- lostlogin 4y agoI’m rather more worried about those that get shot.
- MarcoZavala 4y ago
- factsarelolz 4y agoI find it interesting that such a small country and population can create the most devastating Offensive Kinetic and Cyber weapons… Is this due to conscription and the revolving door with the Military/Civilian sectors? There have been multiple Cyber Security Companies “created” by ex-military personnel. Any insight / conversation on the topic is welcome.
- johanneskanybal 4y agoTheir history, their location, while being an advanced country. It only makes sense it's top of mind and taken seriously where it's not really in many other parts of the known world. Feels like the few Israeli programmers and engineers I've met all have some story of that one time they worked on a military project while it's pretty uncommon in general.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- natch 4y agoI’d guess it’s due to the nature of the unrelenting violent opposition they face. Necessity is the mother of invention. And to be fair (making both sides equally pissed off here), from the Palestinian perspective, the violent opposition is seen to be necessitated by the violent oppression and other injustices. But for Israel it’s not just about their internal opposition. They are surrounded by enemies near and far interested in their violent demise. So of course they are highly motivated to develop effective weapons.
- factsarelolz 4y ago> I’d guess it’s due to the nature of the unrelenting violent opposition they face. Necessity is the mother of invention. It would be one thing if these types of weapons were used for defense versus offense. Then selling off that offensive weapon to fund more offensive weapons. These weapons that were created as you said to combat violent opposition, enables Nation States and Authoritarian Regimes to target journalists and whistleblowers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)
- Qem 4y agoWhat title should people working on such systems bear? Apartheid Automation Engineer?
- weatherlite 4y agoWhat do you call American weapon industry workers - Arab Exterminating Engineers?
- drdrek 4y agoI'll start by saying that we all hope for the end of violence, don't let internet trolls that spread hate blind you to the possibility of respectful co-existence, but I just wanted to share a "Fun fact". There is an entire branch of the IDF responsible for border sensor and control systems, and operation is done mostly by women. Be truthful, you imagined a man being behind the trigger.
- krolden 4y agoJust because they're women doesn't mean they aren't "the man".
- impossiblefork 4y agoWhat form do you imagine that respectful co-existence would take, considering that the occupation has continued so long?
- FormerBandmate 4y agoMaybe one of the billion peace deals Israel has offered and the Palestinians have rejected
- impossiblefork 4y agoWhich one do you have in mind in particular? As I understand it the peace proposal of 2000 gave the Palestinians only 66% of the West Bank, with those displaced previously thus being deprived of the property from which they had been displaced. Other proposals have been of the same sort, and I do not see how the Palestinian Authority could accept such an agreement in a way that is in accordance with their duty to those displaced.
- weatherlite 4y ago"Based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10–25 years, the Palestinian state would expand to a maximum of 92% of the West Bank (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap).[8][10] From the Palestinian perspective this equated to an offer of a Palestinian state on a maximum of 86% of the West Bank.[8]" "Israel would retain around 9% in the West Bank in exchange for 1% of land within the Green Line." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit The issue for the Palestinians is way way deeper than 9% of the 67 lines. Hammas doesn't hide its will to turn Israel proper into an Islamic state. PLO never actually forfeited the right of return which is considered a "sacred" right. If only the issue was as simple as offering 9% more percent.
- kornhole 4y agoThe Palestinians there are probably the most heavily surveilled people in the world. These remote controlled turrets are the next level of the panopticon. Whether they are are being manned or not, the effect is chilling if I put myself in their shoes. I would not be surprised if these become targets of rebels.