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>no customer service I own a Tesla and have had no problems with customer service. What I do have a problem with is negotiating a price for a vehicle from a s

>no customer service I own a Tesla and have had no problems with customer service. What I do have a problem with is negotiating a price for a vehicle from a slimy dealership agent who have a litany of techniques to increase their profit for no good reason. On the Tesla website the price you pay is the price that everyone pays.

listenallyall 4y ago
Tesla (and fixed-price car sellers like CarMax) are profiting handsomely squarely off of your inability, unwillingness or fear of negotiating. They just bake the full profit right into the up-front price and wait for people like yourself, happy to pay full price. Your loss.
- kortilla 4y ago
  Do you negotiate when purchasing a toilet at Home Depot?
  - simon_o 4y ago
    If you are buying toilets for 50.000 you probably should be.
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    I would buy bathroom fixtures from an installer, and certainly negotiate the number of labor hours, and a discount off retail price of the fixtures themselves. People negotiate the price of a $40 ride to the airport with taxi drivers every day. I negotiated the price of a pair of prescription glasses just yesterday, and they cost less than $300. So... yes?
    - kortilla 4y ago
      So… no, because they would kick you the fuck out.
  - idop 4y ago
    Yes. And you should negotiate at the dealership too.
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    Funnily enough, my father does (at the local equivalent). Surprisingly, it almost always works. Even in chain stores for hardware/DIY or white goods (fridges, washing machines, etc) there is almost always leeway for haggling to some degree on higher priced items. He works in the automotive industry, where haggling is basically mandatory - if you don't haggle, you are going to get shafted. Its the same at builders merchants and lumber suppliers.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    People who value time over money don’t tend to negotiate as much.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > They just bake the full profit right into the up-front price and wait for people like yourself, happy to pay full price. Your loss. As opposed to the haggling model where they expect to sell a car for $55K but put a $60K tag on it knowing people will haggle it down to $55K and think they got a good deal. It's an absolutely shitty model, and it's saddening that you're falling for it.
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    > put a $60K tag on it Dealerships do not set the sticker price. Only manufacturers do. At Tesla, your only option is to pay full sticker. At dealerships, you can certainly do the same, but you can also negotiate a better deal.
    - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      Still doesn't change my point. Manufacturers (other than Tesla) know people aren't going to pay MSRP. "Negotiating a better deal" is just bullshit. Honda will throw a $24K MSRP on a Honda Civic knowing people will probably actually pay $22K or whatever. The problem here is that you think that if Tesla participated in negotiations, then you could get a $63K Model 3 Performance for $58K by negotiating. That is false. What would actually happen is that they would up the sticker price to $68K so you could feel like you got a deal when you drive away after paying $63K.
arcticbull 4y ago
I agree their pricing model is good, but that has nothing to do with the value proposition of dealerships - just their approach to pricing. Ford could mandate flat pricing overnight to all their dealers too. It's just never been in corporate's interest, until now. For example a MacBook costs the same at BestBuy as it does at an Apple store as it does at apple.com I'm hardly a Musk fanboy, in fact I have strong negative opinions about the, er, gentleman, but this push towards flat pricing and allowing sales directly to individuals is imo an unequivocal good. If the price everyone pays is the same online and at the dealerships then dealerships can prove their value to the customer - or not.
- fragmede 4y ago
  Ford tried with the F150 Lightning and the top end Mustangs, but the dealers all decided they like money more, so you're not getting either of those for anywhere near MSRP. Not for lack of trying by Ford though: https://www.hotcars.com/ford-cracking-down-greedy-dealers-markup/ https://www.hotcars.com/ford-cracking-down-greedy-dealers-ma...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    I mean there's ways. They could just not sell to dealers who are found to be selling over MSRP. It won't be easy, but having an online direct channel makes it a lot easier. Depends how committed you really are, I guess.
    - pexabit 4y ago
      Price functions to clear the market. If the MSRP is too low, then you are going to find waiting lists. It is not like dealers like selling at a price that forces them to carry more inventory than they need to operate.
- pexabit 4y ago
  Ford could do this, but cars are expensive assets that are hard to move around and so subject to changes in local demand, macroeconomic circumstances, etc. Ford would not be able to successfully push flat pricing onto its dealers, because the dealers discover the price that clears their local market.
pexabit 4y ago
Maybe I am wrong about this, but the price you pay at a dealership is the spot price for a car now and here. The price you pay on the Tesla website is for a car some time in the future, some times an indefinitely far off time in the future. I suspect the spot price for a Tesla now and here is also fluctuating, opaque, and subject to negotiation. Am I wrong?
- plasticchris 4y ago
  Sort of, at least last summer if you wanted a car here and now there was a premium attached but you could order one for msrp and indefinitely far in the future is pretty accurate as to when it would arrive.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  In times of smaller demand, Tesla also had inventory on hand that they sold right now. On the other hand, dealerships also sold future cars - and sometimes still do - when you want to have something customized. So, there's no difference besides difference in demand.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > The price you pay on the Tesla website is for a car some time in the future, some times an indefinitely far off time in the future. FWIW, the delivery estimates displayed on the Tesla web site for cars currently in production are pretty accurate. Also, if you order a Performance/Plaid model, you get to the front of the queue. ;-) > I suspect the spot price for a Tesla now and here is also fluctuating, opaque, and subject to negotiation. In that case, you're buying a used one from a dealer, so that would be true. The annoying thing with dealers though is that when it comes to Tesla, they often have no clue what they're actually selling, or they're trying to rip off naive customers. I've seen them try to sell base Model 3's for $55K. For just a couple thousand more, you could get a brand new Model 3 Performance delivered in 2-4 weeks.
idop 4y ago
> I own a Tesla and have had no problems with customer service. Good for you, really. That doesn't invalidate the countless horror stories that prop up on those forums multiple times a day.
- pvaldes 4y ago
  I assume that some of those at least could be fake. Not easy to know it.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  It can be useful to put feelings aside, consider that horror stories are exactly that, and look at data: https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/amp/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfie...

listenallyall 4y ago

Tesla (and fixed-price car sellers like CarMax) are profiting handsomely squarely off of your inability, unwillingness or fear of negotiating. They just bake the full profit right into the up-front price and wait for people like yourself, happy to pay full price. Your loss.

kortilla 4y ago
Do you negotiate when purchasing a toilet at Home Depot?
- simon_o 4y ago
  If you are buying toilets for 50.000 you probably should be.
- listenallyall 4y ago
  I would buy bathroom fixtures from an installer, and certainly negotiate the number of labor hours, and a discount off retail price of the fixtures themselves. People negotiate the price of a $40 ride to the airport with taxi drivers every day. I negotiated the price of a pair of prescription glasses just yesterday, and they cost less than $300. So... yes?
  - kortilla 4y ago
    So… no, because they would kick you the fuck out.
- idop 4y ago
  Yes. And you should negotiate at the dealership too.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Funnily enough, my father does (at the local equivalent). Surprisingly, it almost always works. Even in chain stores for hardware/DIY or white goods (fridges, washing machines, etc) there is almost always leeway for haggling to some degree on higher priced items. He works in the automotive industry, where haggling is basically mandatory - if you don't haggle, you are going to get shafted. Its the same at builders merchants and lumber suppliers.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  People who value time over money don’t tend to negotiate as much.
Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
> They just bake the full profit right into the up-front price and wait for people like yourself, happy to pay full price. Your loss. As opposed to the haggling model where they expect to sell a car for $55K but put a $60K tag on it knowing people will haggle it down to $55K and think they got a good deal. It's an absolutely shitty model, and it's saddening that you're falling for it.
- listenallyall 4y ago
  > put a $60K tag on it Dealerships do not set the sticker price. Only manufacturers do. At Tesla, your only option is to pay full sticker. At dealerships, you can certainly do the same, but you can also negotiate a better deal.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    Still doesn't change my point. Manufacturers (other than Tesla) know people aren't going to pay MSRP. "Negotiating a better deal" is just bullshit. Honda will throw a $24K MSRP on a Honda Civic knowing people will probably actually pay $22K or whatever. The problem here is that you think that if Tesla participated in negotiations, then you could get a $63K Model 3 Performance for $58K by negotiating. That is false. What would actually happen is that they would up the sticker price to $68K so you could feel like you got a deal when you drive away after paying $63K.

arcticbull 4y ago

I agree their pricing model is good, but that has nothing to do with the value proposition of dealerships - just their approach to pricing. Ford could mandate flat pricing overnight to all their dealers too. It's just never been in corporate's interest, until now. For example a MacBook costs the same at BestBuy as it does at an Apple store as it does at apple.com I'm hardly a Musk fanboy, in fact I have strong negative opinions about the, er, gentleman, but this push towards flat pricing and allowing sales directly to individuals is imo an unequivocal good. If the price everyone pays is the same online and at the dealerships then dealerships can prove their value to the customer - or not.

fragmede 4y ago
Ford tried with the F150 Lightning and the top end Mustangs, but the dealers all decided they like money more, so you're not getting either of those for anywhere near MSRP. Not for lack of trying by Ford though: https://www.hotcars.com/ford-cracking-down-greedy-dealers-markup/ https://www.hotcars.com/ford-cracking-down-greedy-dealers-ma...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- arcticbull 4y ago
  I mean there's ways. They could just not sell to dealers who are found to be selling over MSRP. It won't be easy, but having an online direct channel makes it a lot easier. Depends how committed you really are, I guess.
  - pexabit 4y ago
    Price functions to clear the market. If the MSRP is too low, then you are going to find waiting lists. It is not like dealers like selling at a price that forces them to carry more inventory than they need to operate.
pexabit 4y ago
Ford could do this, but cars are expensive assets that are hard to move around and so subject to changes in local demand, macroeconomic circumstances, etc. Ford would not be able to successfully push flat pricing onto its dealers, because the dealers discover the price that clears their local market.

pexabit 4y ago

Maybe I am wrong about this, but the price you pay at a dealership is the spot price for a car now and here. The price you pay on the Tesla website is for a car some time in the future, some times an indefinitely far off time in the future. I suspect the spot price for a Tesla now and here is also fluctuating, opaque, and subject to negotiation. Am I wrong?

plasticchris 4y ago
Sort of, at least last summer if you wanted a car here and now there was a premium attached but you could order one for msrp and indefinitely far in the future is pretty accurate as to when it would arrive.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
In times of smaller demand, Tesla also had inventory on hand that they sold right now. On the other hand, dealerships also sold future cars - and sometimes still do - when you want to have something customized. So, there's no difference besides difference in demand.
Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
> The price you pay on the Tesla website is for a car some time in the future, some times an indefinitely far off time in the future. FWIW, the delivery estimates displayed on the Tesla web site for cars currently in production are pretty accurate. Also, if you order a Performance/Plaid model, you get to the front of the queue. ;-) > I suspect the spot price for a Tesla now and here is also fluctuating, opaque, and subject to negotiation. In that case, you're buying a used one from a dealer, so that would be true. The annoying thing with dealers though is that when it comes to Tesla, they often have no clue what they're actually selling, or they're trying to rip off naive customers. I've seen them try to sell base Model 3's for $55K. For just a couple thousand more, you could get a brand new Model 3 Performance delivered in 2-4 weeks.

idop 4y ago

> I own a Tesla and have had no problems with customer service. Good for you, really. That doesn't invalidate the countless horror stories that prop up on those forums multiple times a day.

pvaldes 4y ago
I assume that some of those at least could be fake. Not easy to know it.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
It can be useful to put feelings aside, consider that horror stories are exactly that, and look at data: https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/amp/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfie...