7 ms·

There are some small farms doing things right, their meat is 3-4x the price of normal meat, but worth it.

xashor 4y ago
Not saying that you actually believe this, but because of mentioning "small farms" I want to highlight the fallacy of believing that in general smaller farms are better for animal welfare: https://www.fondation-droit-animal.org/proceedings-aw/is-animal-welfare-better-on-smaller-farms/ https://www.fondation-droit-animal.org/proceedings-aw/is-ani... The abuse is often just different.
steve_adams_86 4y ago
Similar to the comment above, I won’t judge people for eating meat (I did for 35 years). I wonder though, why is it that much more important to offer an animal slightly better welfare so we can murder it? Welfare is an arbitrary notion. Ultimately we raise these animals and ostensibly care about them, but our goal is only to profit off of their bodies and kill them as children, long before they would die naturally. I suppose all I’m saying is that it isn’t good welfare no matter how you slice it. These animals are slaves that get murdered in horrifying conditions 99.9% of the time. I tried to feel okay about it for a long time, but eventually came to realize that the meat I spent 2-4x on for better welfare was only marginally different from the stuff I found came from reprehensible conditions. I also discovered a lot of small farms which have better welfare on the farm still send their animals places where they’re exposed to completely abysmal suffering and death in their final hours. The depth of how bad these systems get is beyond what I ever imagined. Anyway, even as someone who used to shoot animals and spear fish, this whole journey made me realize: I don’t think there’s such a thing as ethical meat, and virtually no one is “doing it right”, as much as I was willing to pay for that and I wanted to believe in it. I often wonder why I came to that conclusion and others don’t. I almost feel like a crazy person some days, but I take real comfort in not supporting these systems.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  > I wonder though, why is it that much more important to offer an animal slightly better welfare so we can murder it? The general view appears to be that gratuitous suffering is bad, but that animal life is not sacred. From the secular perspective, neither is human life for that matter (see: pro-choice), but we have a social contract with each other as persons, and not beings with low or nil consciousness. Indigenous tribes would also tell you that for as much as they respect animals, their death is no object - apropos, would you tell them they should join us and relocate to where heavily fertilized land is? > These animals are slaves that get murdered in horrifying conditions 99.9% of the time. Life in seclusion with plentiful food and no predators in itself is less stressful than surviving in the wild, without the important confounding factor that is conditions in large conventional farms. There's no reason to assume the small farm one knows and buys meat from is "horrifying". That's not denying that they can exist, but you can't extrapolate that most farmers are in it to be cruel - this is a conclusion in search of evidence. Have you ever known farmers? I see a lot of anecdotes and adjectives in these discussions, and not enough evidence. > I don't think there’s such a thing as ethical meat Because you object to any and all killing of animals for meat. You made this clear when you opened with "murder".
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    I grew up farming, I’ve hunted, and for the last 6 years or so I was spear fishing quite often. I’ve stopped for the last year or two. I don’t object to any and all killing of animals for meat. It seems that many people genuinely do it out of necessity, and that is arguably going to have to be okay in perpetuity. I suppose that’s why a common tenet of veganism is to practice it only insofar as it is practicable. I draw the line at my sickness or death, because fundamentally I’m an animal just like those I’d otherwise seek to protect. I suppose I believe life is sacred, period, and that humans aren’t innately special fauna on earth. I don’t see a need for a cow to die for my enjoyment, just as I wouldn’t kill someone’s pet or another human. You’re right though, I opened with murder because indeed I see it as unnecessary, cruel, and beyond reason. Not all cases are like this though, and I don’t think all meat eating needs to end. I should add too that I don’t believe many (if any, it would be a vanishingly small proportion) are in farming to be cruel. I’m confident most farmers think they’re doing a good thing and taking good care of their livestock. I simply believe they are wrong, though. Using an animal’s body for profit strikes me as a fundamentally unkind thing to do to a sentient being.
- slfnflctd 4y ago
  > a lot of small farms which have better welfare on the farm still send their animals places where they’re exposed to completely abysmal suffering This is still my biggest issue. In smaller and more 'primitive' human populations of ages past, swiftly killing animals that could eat plants people couldn't in order to get meat necessary to not starve seems like an obvious choice. That is a very, very far cry from what we're doing now. Maybe in the future we'll go back to something similar again for whatever reasons, but it's just not where we're at today.
  - gw98 4y ago
    Completely agree with this. What is really terrible is the waste in the system. We have supply chains set up where a big chunk of what we produce gets thrown away just so people can have a large choice of "products". The objective is to keep the profit margin high why disposing of stuff. That is in no way sustainable or ethical, merely currently socially acceptable.
- technoooooost 4y ago
  100% agree. Not proud of eating meat, been vegan 3+ years, but right now my selfish reason is that there are so few moments of pleasure in life, and eating meat is one of them. Hoping to get vegan again if I can find other pleasurable activities to keep me from jumping off a cliff.
  - gw98 4y ago
    Spicy food does it for me. I found that it wasn't meat I was after but flavour. Turns out you don't need meat for flavour. Also when I'm craving meat it tends to go away if I take iron supplements or remember to actually eat enough iron filled vegetables.
    - steve_adams_86 4y ago
      Hey, me too! Spicy food does wonders for making a meal feel like more than just food. I've found I get the same level of gratification from eating really well-seasoned dal (for example) that I used to get from eating meat. As my tastes have adjusted, I don't miss the meat at all. I think what it is though is that I used to season meat heavily, cook it carefully, and it was this delicious, very intentional, and extremely gratifying sensory experience. If I replace that with vegetables, grains, and legumes, it seems to basically do the same thing. I never crave barbacoa beef anymore, but I'll crave chilli or pad Thai (heavily seasoned and savoury or bright, intense flavours) and feel just as great when I eat them. I also agree that ensuring your nutritional bases are covered goes a long way in reducing cravings (arguably for just about anything).
      - gw98 4y ago
        Nailed it. In the same place as well. Veg Thali does it for me. This is my favourite dish(es): https://imgur.com/a/ufsoHD7 https://imgur.com/a/ufsoHD7
        steve_adams_86 4y ago
        Absolutely, this is my go-to kind of meal. I guess when I ate meat I'd tend to have meals that were probably a little less balanced, so it has been amazing to make the move to meals like this, find that I love eating it, but also feel better too.

Not saying that you actually believe this, but because of mentioning "small farms" I want to highlight the fallacy of believing that in general smaller farms are better for animal welfare: https://www.fondation-droit-animal.org/proceedings-aw/is-animal-welfare-better-on-smaller-farms/ https://www.fondation-droit-animal.org/proceedings-aw/is-ani... The abuse is often just different.

steve_adams_86 4y ago

Similar to the comment above, I won’t judge people for eating meat (I did for 35 years). I wonder though, why is it that much more important to offer an animal slightly better welfare so we can murder it? Welfare is an arbitrary notion. Ultimately we raise these animals and ostensibly care about them, but our goal is only to profit off of their bodies and kill them as children, long before they would die naturally. I suppose all I’m saying is that it isn’t good welfare no matter how you slice it. These animals are slaves that get murdered in horrifying conditions 99.9% of the time. I tried to feel okay about it for a long time, but eventually came to realize that the meat I spent 2-4x on for better welfare was only marginally different from the stuff I found came from reprehensible conditions. I also discovered a lot of small farms which have better welfare on the farm still send their animals places where they’re exposed to completely abysmal suffering and death in their final hours. The depth of how bad these systems get is beyond what I ever imagined. Anyway, even as someone who used to shoot animals and spear fish, this whole journey made me realize: I don’t think there’s such a thing as ethical meat, and virtually no one is “doing it right”, as much as I was willing to pay for that and I wanted to believe in it. I often wonder why I came to that conclusion and others don’t. I almost feel like a crazy person some days, but I take real comfort in not supporting these systems.

slothtrop 4y ago
> I wonder though, why is it that much more important to offer an animal slightly better welfare so we can murder it? The general view appears to be that gratuitous suffering is bad, but that animal life is not sacred. From the secular perspective, neither is human life for that matter (see: pro-choice), but we have a social contract with each other as persons, and not beings with low or nil consciousness. Indigenous tribes would also tell you that for as much as they respect animals, their death is no object - apropos, would you tell them they should join us and relocate to where heavily fertilized land is? > These animals are slaves that get murdered in horrifying conditions 99.9% of the time. Life in seclusion with plentiful food and no predators in itself is less stressful than surviving in the wild, without the important confounding factor that is conditions in large conventional farms. There's no reason to assume the small farm one knows and buys meat from is "horrifying". That's not denying that they can exist, but you can't extrapolate that most farmers are in it to be cruel - this is a conclusion in search of evidence. Have you ever known farmers? I see a lot of anecdotes and adjectives in these discussions, and not enough evidence. > I don't think there’s such a thing as ethical meat Because you object to any and all killing of animals for meat. You made this clear when you opened with "murder".
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  I grew up farming, I’ve hunted, and for the last 6 years or so I was spear fishing quite often. I’ve stopped for the last year or two. I don’t object to any and all killing of animals for meat. It seems that many people genuinely do it out of necessity, and that is arguably going to have to be okay in perpetuity. I suppose that’s why a common tenet of veganism is to practice it only insofar as it is practicable. I draw the line at my sickness or death, because fundamentally I’m an animal just like those I’d otherwise seek to protect. I suppose I believe life is sacred, period, and that humans aren’t innately special fauna on earth. I don’t see a need for a cow to die for my enjoyment, just as I wouldn’t kill someone’s pet or another human. You’re right though, I opened with murder because indeed I see it as unnecessary, cruel, and beyond reason. Not all cases are like this though, and I don’t think all meat eating needs to end. I should add too that I don’t believe many (if any, it would be a vanishingly small proportion) are in farming to be cruel. I’m confident most farmers think they’re doing a good thing and taking good care of their livestock. I simply believe they are wrong, though. Using an animal’s body for profit strikes me as a fundamentally unkind thing to do to a sentient being.
slfnflctd 4y ago
> a lot of small farms which have better welfare on the farm still send their animals places where they’re exposed to completely abysmal suffering This is still my biggest issue. In smaller and more 'primitive' human populations of ages past, swiftly killing animals that could eat plants people couldn't in order to get meat necessary to not starve seems like an obvious choice. That is a very, very far cry from what we're doing now. Maybe in the future we'll go back to something similar again for whatever reasons, but it's just not where we're at today.
- gw98 4y ago
  Completely agree with this. What is really terrible is the waste in the system. We have supply chains set up where a big chunk of what we produce gets thrown away just so people can have a large choice of "products". The objective is to keep the profit margin high why disposing of stuff. That is in no way sustainable or ethical, merely currently socially acceptable.
technoooooost 4y ago
100% agree. Not proud of eating meat, been vegan 3+ years, but right now my selfish reason is that there are so few moments of pleasure in life, and eating meat is one of them. Hoping to get vegan again if I can find other pleasurable activities to keep me from jumping off a cliff.
- gw98 4y ago
  Spicy food does it for me. I found that it wasn't meat I was after but flavour. Turns out you don't need meat for flavour. Also when I'm craving meat it tends to go away if I take iron supplements or remember to actually eat enough iron filled vegetables.
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    Hey, me too! Spicy food does wonders for making a meal feel like more than just food. I've found I get the same level of gratification from eating really well-seasoned dal (for example) that I used to get from eating meat. As my tastes have adjusted, I don't miss the meat at all. I think what it is though is that I used to season meat heavily, cook it carefully, and it was this delicious, very intentional, and extremely gratifying sensory experience. If I replace that with vegetables, grains, and legumes, it seems to basically do the same thing. I never crave barbacoa beef anymore, but I'll crave chilli or pad Thai (heavily seasoned and savoury or bright, intense flavours) and feel just as great when I eat them. I also agree that ensuring your nutritional bases are covered goes a long way in reducing cravings (arguably for just about anything).
    - gw98 4y ago
      Nailed it. In the same place as well. Veg Thali does it for me. This is my favourite dish(es): https://imgur.com/a/ufsoHD7 https://imgur.com/a/ufsoHD7
      - steve_adams_86 4y ago
        Absolutely, this is my go-to kind of meal. I guess when I ate meat I'd tend to have meals that were probably a little less balanced, so it has been amazing to make the move to meals like this, find that I love eating it, but also feel better too.