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So what is the point of all this? If done by Ukrainians, what military objective does is accomplish? Are we supposed to track down the people responsible for t

So what is the point of all this? If done by Ukrainians, what military objective does is accomplish? Are we supposed to track down the people responsible for the Tomahawk cruise missile program as well? I mean, this piece does not make any sense to me. There is a difference between the people that make weapons and those that use them.

euos 4y ago
It’s the people who program the missiles. People who knowingly attack power infrastructure in a cold country (my parents spent 12 hours without the power today). People who make mistakes that make missiles struck residential buildings. Investigators said he contacted them and they were completely nonchalant about the result of their work. He used the term “banality of evil”.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Aeolun 4y ago
  I find it hard to blame the Russians doing this especially much. At least I’d have to blame the developers of the hellfire missile and reaper drone just as much.
  - nradov 4y ago
    It's not a matter of blame. In this situation, everyone contributing to the war effort is a target. Israeli covert operations have repeatedly conducted targeted killings against key civilian employees in the Iranian defense industry. Nothing personal, just degrading an adversary's capabilities.
    - IYasha 4y ago
      if only Iranian...
  - brtkdotse 4y ago
    > At least I’d have to blame the developers of the hellfire missile and reaper drone just as much. I mean… yes?!
  - l3uwin 4y ago
    You're so close to getting the point
  - euos 4y ago
    Are you Russian yourself? "Especially much" seems like literal translation from Russian ("особо много"). This would explain intentional stupidity. Developers of the weapons may say they do not want to hit civilian targets. These people know full well what they are doing. They are pure inexcusable evil.
    - Aeolun 4y ago
      I’m Dutch. Not sure if there’s any overlap in the language, but I think it’s a term I only use in English. You have to be at least some level of patriotic to work on weapons systems, so it’s more likely they’ll call it regrettable that it’s sometimes necessary to use against civilians and call it a day. The reason I say I don’t blame them in particular is because I can see the appeal of working on things that blow shit up. Even better if you believe they’re your enemies (would I have issues making weapons that drive the Russians out of Ukraine?). It’s because I have faith in my government. And as ridiculous and caused by propaganda as it may be, that is likely the same for the Russians. From my perspective they’re evil, but I doubt they see themselves that way.
  - totalZero 4y ago
    Perhaps the engineers who dedicate their time and creativity to the expert manufacture of tools for destruction are not blameless.
    - Aeolun 4y ago
      Eh? They likely believe better tools of destruction make for shorter wars and saves their soldier’s lives.
      - bearmode 4y ago
        Have to be utterly insane to believe that, or lack absolutely any knowledge of war history from the last century.
pifm_guy 4y ago
If you work on anything even distantly military related, it's a risk you take as part of the job. If your country loses any war/power struggle, the new incoming government will punish you for being involved in the military of the old government fighting against the incomers.
deanCommie 4y ago
I mean this is not the context to have this discussion, but yes, if another country operated like the US does, we would call many of it's actions "war crimes" and discussing the relative complicity of the "civilians" that make the missiles.
DangitBobby 4y ago
I agree, it doesn't really make any sense to hunt these people down.
- prvit 4y ago
  How does it not?
- pvaldes 4y ago
  In a context of war crimes trial, it made all the sense. If a missile is programmed to fall in a maternity full of pregnant women, they are necessary accomplices of a massive assassination. They could be lied about it the first couple of times. After nine full months of terrorism, "we didn't knew the consequences of our actions" is not reasonable
- egorfine 4y ago
  It certainly does. I'm writing this in a cold apartment in Kiev with no electricity and very low cell signal.
wojciii 4y ago
Many of the missile strikes target civilian buildings and infrastructure (shopping malls, railway stations, markets) and are used to terrorise. Most of the missile strikes have no military value, as Russia seems to withdraw from parts of Ukraine. Perhaps showing the group responsible would make them think about what they are doing besides inputting coordinates.
- Synaesthesia 4y ago
  The exact same thing could be said about the US, even worse.
  - j-pb 4y ago
    Exactly. The people remote controlling drones into civilians in Ukraine should be held accountable, just like the people that killed civilians with hellfire missiles in Afghanistan should be held accountable. As a german I'd also like to see the german politicians and officials that enabled these operations from german territory persecuted.
    - IYasha 4y ago
      I'd also generalize that "people" remotely controlling armies should be held accountable. Since you're a german: I was reading hard to comeby chronicles and memoirs from before WW2 and there was this fact: russians and germans were close friends, people from military missions were calling each other brothers. This was frowned upon by the government... So, I'm saying, humans are generally peaceful and friendly, but are being manipulated. :(
    - prvit 4y ago
      > The people remote controlling drones into civilians in Ukraine should be held accountable, just like the people that killed civilians with hellfire missiles in Afghanistan should be held accountable Typical civilian deaths in Afghanistan would be e.g. families living with high ranking enemy combatants, totally incomparable with Russian forces bombing shopping malls in Ukraine. At least the US cares enough to have a man in the loop when killing with their drones. Chair force killers actually have to watch and pull the trigger, not like the Russian missile programmers remotely destroying city block sized targets.
SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
The people who make missiles are complicit, and are partially responsible for the deaths that result from them. And yes, that raises awkward questions about the military industrial complex, and about other countries and people who are also doing it. But it's basic cause and effect, some people built a missile, some people ordered its use, some people launched it at the target. All of them bear some portion of the responsibility for the end result, any other conclusion is not entirely honest.
- d0mine 4y ago
  Are you ready to apply the same standard to the people who work on war drones at google? (my guess, not)
  - prvit 4y ago
    What drones developed by googlers are being used for terror campaigns against civilian infrastructure?
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    That would depend on how are used. There are international laws regulating war, and the fact is that Russia toke great pleasure into violating each single one of them. Systematically. Deliberately. All while telling lies and jokes to inflict the greatest pain possible to the population. It is an spectacle absolutely hideous. And now they wonder why aren't attracting any international sympathy lately
Gibbon1 4y ago
They're legitimate military targets. Ukraine has every legal right to try to kill them.

euos 4y ago

It’s the people who program the missiles. People who knowingly attack power infrastructure in a cold country (my parents spent 12 hours without the power today). People who make mistakes that make missiles struck residential buildings. Investigators said he contacted them and they were completely nonchalant about the result of their work. He used the term “banality of evil”.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Aeolun 4y ago
I find it hard to blame the Russians doing this especially much. At least I’d have to blame the developers of the hellfire missile and reaper drone just as much.
- nradov 4y ago
  It's not a matter of blame. In this situation, everyone contributing to the war effort is a target. Israeli covert operations have repeatedly conducted targeted killings against key civilian employees in the Iranian defense industry. Nothing personal, just degrading an adversary's capabilities.
  - IYasha 4y ago
    if only Iranian...
- brtkdotse 4y ago
  > At least I’d have to blame the developers of the hellfire missile and reaper drone just as much. I mean… yes?!
- l3uwin 4y ago
  You're so close to getting the point
- euos 4y ago
  Are you Russian yourself? "Especially much" seems like literal translation from Russian ("особо много"). This would explain intentional stupidity. Developers of the weapons may say they do not want to hit civilian targets. These people know full well what they are doing. They are pure inexcusable evil.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    I’m Dutch. Not sure if there’s any overlap in the language, but I think it’s a term I only use in English. You have to be at least some level of patriotic to work on weapons systems, so it’s more likely they’ll call it regrettable that it’s sometimes necessary to use against civilians and call it a day. The reason I say I don’t blame them in particular is because I can see the appeal of working on things that blow shit up. Even better if you believe they’re your enemies (would I have issues making weapons that drive the Russians out of Ukraine?). It’s because I have faith in my government. And as ridiculous and caused by propaganda as it may be, that is likely the same for the Russians. From my perspective they’re evil, but I doubt they see themselves that way.
- totalZero 4y ago
  Perhaps the engineers who dedicate their time and creativity to the expert manufacture of tools for destruction are not blameless.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    Eh? They likely believe better tools of destruction make for shorter wars and saves their soldier’s lives.
    - bearmode 4y ago
      Have to be utterly insane to believe that, or lack absolutely any knowledge of war history from the last century.

pifm_guy 4y ago

If you work on anything even distantly military related, it's a risk you take as part of the job. If your country loses any war/power struggle, the new incoming government will punish you for being involved in the military of the old government fighting against the incomers.

deanCommie 4y ago

I mean this is not the context to have this discussion, but yes, if another country operated like the US does, we would call many of it's actions "war crimes" and discussing the relative complicity of the "civilians" that make the missiles.

DangitBobby 4y ago

I agree, it doesn't really make any sense to hunt these people down.

prvit 4y ago
How does it not?
pvaldes 4y ago
In a context of war crimes trial, it made all the sense. If a missile is programmed to fall in a maternity full of pregnant women, they are necessary accomplices of a massive assassination. They could be lied about it the first couple of times. After nine full months of terrorism, "we didn't knew the consequences of our actions" is not reasonable
egorfine 4y ago
It certainly does. I'm writing this in a cold apartment in Kiev with no electricity and very low cell signal.

wojciii 4y ago

Many of the missile strikes target civilian buildings and infrastructure (shopping malls, railway stations, markets) and are used to terrorise. Most of the missile strikes have no military value, as Russia seems to withdraw from parts of Ukraine. Perhaps showing the group responsible would make them think about what they are doing besides inputting coordinates.

Synaesthesia 4y ago
The exact same thing could be said about the US, even worse.
- j-pb 4y ago
  Exactly. The people remote controlling drones into civilians in Ukraine should be held accountable, just like the people that killed civilians with hellfire missiles in Afghanistan should be held accountable. As a german I'd also like to see the german politicians and officials that enabled these operations from german territory persecuted.
  - IYasha 4y ago
    I'd also generalize that "people" remotely controlling armies should be held accountable. Since you're a german: I was reading hard to comeby chronicles and memoirs from before WW2 and there was this fact: russians and germans were close friends, people from military missions were calling each other brothers. This was frowned upon by the government... So, I'm saying, humans are generally peaceful and friendly, but are being manipulated. :(
  - prvit 4y ago
    > The people remote controlling drones into civilians in Ukraine should be held accountable, just like the people that killed civilians with hellfire missiles in Afghanistan should be held accountable Typical civilian deaths in Afghanistan would be e.g. families living with high ranking enemy combatants, totally incomparable with Russian forces bombing shopping malls in Ukraine. At least the US cares enough to have a man in the loop when killing with their drones. Chair force killers actually have to watch and pull the trigger, not like the Russian missile programmers remotely destroying city block sized targets.

SturgeonsLaw 4y ago

The people who make missiles are complicit, and are partially responsible for the deaths that result from them. And yes, that raises awkward questions about the military industrial complex, and about other countries and people who are also doing it. But it's basic cause and effect, some people built a missile, some people ordered its use, some people launched it at the target. All of them bear some portion of the responsibility for the end result, any other conclusion is not entirely honest.

d0mine 4y ago
Are you ready to apply the same standard to the people who work on war drones at google? (my guess, not)
- prvit 4y ago
  What drones developed by googlers are being used for terror campaigns against civilian infrastructure?
- pvaldes 4y ago
  That would depend on how are used. There are international laws regulating war, and the fact is that Russia toke great pleasure into violating each single one of them. Systematically. Deliberately. All while telling lies and jokes to inflict the greatest pain possible to the population. It is an spectacle absolutely hideous. And now they wonder why aren't attracting any international sympathy lately

Gibbon1 4y ago

They're legitimate military targets. Ukraine has every legal right to try to kill them.