7 ms·

I did not know this...

zaik 4y ago
If you are about to write a DM you will see this warning: Posts on Mastodon are not end-to-end encrypted. Do not share any sensitive information over Mastodon.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
fazfq 4y ago
What did you expect? Messages have to be stored on the server, and the instance owner has access to the server...
- icelancer 4y ago
  Normal users do not understand what federation is, much less how messages are stored.
  - stormbrew 4y ago
    This has nothing to do with federation. It's just a fact of life on any hosted internet service.
    - yarg 4y ago
      Not if end-to-end encryption is available.
      - stormbrew 4y ago
        If you don't own the key exchange (and you don't, even on the services most people consider secure), you're still, on some level or another, just relying on trust that this is the case. At any rate, mastodon is a web app, not an IM client. No one who's ever raised this has even begun to explain how you could work e2e into something like it. Certainly no other microblogging platform has e2e anything, because that's not actually a thing that makes sense.
        yarg 4y ago
        > because that's not actually a thing that makes sense. No for micro-blogging, but Mastodon supports direct messaging, and if you support direct messaging, you should support end-to-end. > If you don't own the key exchange ... Sure, but I trust https://letsencrypt.org/ https://letsencrypt.org/ more than I trust some random running a server.
        stormbrew 4y ago
        > No for micro-blogging, but Mastodon supports direct messaging, and if you support direct messaging, you should support end-to-end. No other microblogging service with DM support has e2e anything. Because they're websites. To have meaningful e2e you need to have key exchange and device keys, and if you have a website you can look at your DMs on then the website has to have a key. If the website has a key the owner of the website can look at your DMs. This is just fundamental to hosted web services, and it's why if you use icloud messaging with imessage you're no longer guaranteed e2e, and why signal just doesn't even have a website for you to use. > Sure, but I trust https://letsencrypt.org/ https://letsencrypt.org/ more than I trust some random running a server. LE has nothing to do with this? The key exchange I'm talking about is the end keys. User keys. LE doesn't provide those. For e2e IM systems a server has to manage user/device:key mappings, and are a central point of trust. They can potentially inject a "listening key" into your recipient list without you knowing and tap you or even impersonate you (but only in a forward way). E2E is not a panacea, but it's also largely irrelevant to websites.
        palata 4y ago
        That's wrong. A "website" can do e2ee. You just need to do the encryption/decryption on the client side. Protonmail does that, Mega, etc.
        stormbrew 4y ago
        Eh, if you don't trust your masto instance admin to not read your DMs do you really trust them to not break the "your password never leaves the client" guarantees that protonmail for eg. promises? This is the thing about this argument: Either you trust your instance admins or not. If they promise you e2e and you don't trust them, you should rightly look at that as snakeoil.
    - icelancer 4y ago
      Chances of a centralized Twitter stealing your sensitive information is quite a bit lower than N number of federated Mastodon instances run by any number and types of actors.
- scubbo 4y ago
  (Hypothetically) wouldn't it be possible for client devices to generate key pairs, and for messages to be stored on the server encrypted in such a way that recipients' client devices could decrypt them? (I think that's what Signal does?) Not saying that that's what happens on Mastodon instances, I don't know enough about it's operation to comment.
  - remram 4y ago
    Yes, end-to-end encryption is possible. It just needs support in clients, as well as a common protocol if you want it to work between different clients. Mastodon has actually done some work towards that but I don't think it's useable yet, see https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/13820 https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/13820
    - scubbo 4y ago
      Thanks!

zaik 4y ago

If you are about to write a DM you will see this warning: Posts on Mastodon are not end-to-end encrypted. Do not share any sensitive information over Mastodon.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

fazfq 4y ago

What did you expect? Messages have to be stored on the server, and the instance owner has access to the server...

icelancer 4y ago
Normal users do not understand what federation is, much less how messages are stored.
- stormbrew 4y ago
  This has nothing to do with federation. It's just a fact of life on any hosted internet service.
  - yarg 4y ago
    Not if end-to-end encryption is available.
    - stormbrew 4y ago
      If you don't own the key exchange (and you don't, even on the services most people consider secure), you're still, on some level or another, just relying on trust that this is the case. At any rate, mastodon is a web app, not an IM client. No one who's ever raised this has even begun to explain how you could work e2e into something like it. Certainly no other microblogging platform has e2e anything, because that's not actually a thing that makes sense.
      - yarg 4y ago
        > because that's not actually a thing that makes sense. No for micro-blogging, but Mastodon supports direct messaging, and if you support direct messaging, you should support end-to-end. > If you don't own the key exchange ... Sure, but I trust https://letsencrypt.org/ https://letsencrypt.org/ more than I trust some random running a server.
        stormbrew 4y ago
        > No for micro-blogging, but Mastodon supports direct messaging, and if you support direct messaging, you should support end-to-end. No other microblogging service with DM support has e2e anything. Because they're websites. To have meaningful e2e you need to have key exchange and device keys, and if you have a website you can look at your DMs on then the website has to have a key. If the website has a key the owner of the website can look at your DMs. This is just fundamental to hosted web services, and it's why if you use icloud messaging with imessage you're no longer guaranteed e2e, and why signal just doesn't even have a website for you to use. > Sure, but I trust https://letsencrypt.org/ https://letsencrypt.org/ more than I trust some random running a server. LE has nothing to do with this? The key exchange I'm talking about is the end keys. User keys. LE doesn't provide those. For e2e IM systems a server has to manage user/device:key mappings, and are a central point of trust. They can potentially inject a "listening key" into your recipient list without you knowing and tap you or even impersonate you (but only in a forward way). E2E is not a panacea, but it's also largely irrelevant to websites.
        palata 4y ago
        That's wrong. A "website" can do e2ee. You just need to do the encryption/decryption on the client side. Protonmail does that, Mega, etc.
        stormbrew 4y ago
        Eh, if you don't trust your masto instance admin to not read your DMs do you really trust them to not break the "your password never leaves the client" guarantees that protonmail for eg. promises? This is the thing about this argument: Either you trust your instance admins or not. If they promise you e2e and you don't trust them, you should rightly look at that as snakeoil.
  - icelancer 4y ago
    Chances of a centralized Twitter stealing your sensitive information is quite a bit lower than N number of federated Mastodon instances run by any number and types of actors.
scubbo 4y ago
(Hypothetically) wouldn't it be possible for client devices to generate key pairs, and for messages to be stored on the server encrypted in such a way that recipients' client devices could decrypt them? (I think that's what Signal does?) Not saying that that's what happens on Mastodon instances, I don't know enough about it's operation to comment.
- remram 4y ago
  Yes, end-to-end encryption is possible. It just needs support in clients, as well as a common protocol if you want it to work between different clients. Mastodon has actually done some work towards that but I don't think it's useable yet, see https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/13820 https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/13820
  - scubbo 4y ago
    Thanks!