9 ms·

I'm surprised by these "generous" packages. Where I work in Europe, they must give me 3 months notice, my full salary is paid for 6 months, after which it's 75%

by sweaty 4y ago

I'm surprised by these "generous" packages. Where I work in Europe, they must give me 3 months notice, my full salary is paid for 6 months, after which it's 75% up to 2 years, and if I still don't find anything new by then I get 50% indefinitely. I've worked in both the US and various EU countries, while the higher salary is certainly enticing, it's also a trap; When shit hits the fan, you better have been saving. In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me.

oytis 4y ago
> When shit hits the fan, you better have been saving. In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me. I wonder where this happy country is. In Germany it is already a common knowledge that relying on state for your retirement is a sure recipe for poverty in the old age.
- onli 4y ago
  France would fit.
- dopidopHN 4y ago
  It’s probably France
- patates 4y ago
  > In Germany it is already a common knowledge that relying on state for your retirement is a sure recipe for poverty in the old age. Is it? I'm living in Germany since so many years and nobody told me this. They send me estimates about the money I'd be getting when retiring regularly, and while it'd mean downsizing, I'd not be poor with the amounts named.
  - hankerito 4y ago
    Assuming you are somewhere in IT and earn above the average, you will be okay-ish. People with lower incomes will benefit less. But if you look at that receipt and consider inflation, the extreme rise in rent in Germany, etc and all of that over maybe 20-30 years from you ending your career. It becomes less. There are adjustments for inflation, but still. These high pension values are also quite sure to be unsustainable for the government, as the workforce shrinks quite dramatically and people still get older. Generally, people are advised to put some money for retirement on the side, if they can. If you are in a position to put some money aside probably try to do some research. "Geldanlage für Faule" by Sina Groß is a very down to earth starting place.
    - egeozcan 4y ago
      Great reply! To be honest, It's easy to forget about the inflation. Well, worst case, one could make more kids and invent their own "take care of your parents" ponzi-scheme, hehe. Seriously though, in Germany, you always get this sense that everybody seems to know what they are doing until ??it hits the fan and you realize all that time nobody had cared about what's coming.
    - jansan 4y ago
      It is guaraneed to be less value in 20-30 years, because Germany's pensions are transferred directly from the pension fee deducted from salary of employees. And since in 20-30 years you will have a totally diffeerent ratio of number of employees vs. pensioners, the cake will be smaller and will have to be distributed to more people. No matter how inflation or anything works out in future, pensioners will then have less than pensioners now, who more or less live in paradise.
      - Tainnor 4y ago
        It's wise to be prepared for this scenario for the reasons you mention, but in 20-30 years a lot can obviously change; either a change to the way the pensions are funded (this already started happening to a small extent) or a sudden influx of qualified (!) migrants. I wouldn't bet on any of it happening, but predicting the future is always hard.
throwaway4aday 4y ago
Those benefits are ludicrous. How can any small company or startup survive if they have to contend with those kinds of requirements? If I were a business owner wherever you are I'd restrict my hiring as much as possible and try to find ways to not hire anyone, probably by contracting work out to other businesses or offshore completely.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  Those benefits are not paid by the company, but by the state. That's one of the reasons why cash-in-hand salaries are lower in most "socialist" European countries: the State takes a big fat cut out of it (47% in France), so it can pay for these benefits.
  - dboreham 4y ago
    Taxes in the USA are often just as high (remember to add in state and local taxes for an apples to apples comparison with European countries). And for that you get no "socialism" -- no healthcare until you're old, for example.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      People forget to count the corporate taxes on the employers in Europe (to support the welfare state) which lowers the salaries of workers making the calculation look like taxes are similar.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      Income taxes (Federal + CA) seem to be roughly in the same ballpark as France based on [0]. A French income tax simulator is available at [1]. This is the "simplified" version. What matters is box 1AJ for salaried income. For 100000 USD it's actually a bit higher than for 100000 EUR. However, as another commenter said, income tax is not the full story - far from it. There are other taxes that you have to pay. Also, while social security comes out of your paycheck, it's considered taxable income in France for the purposes of the income tax. Also, social security is usually insufficient, so you usually have to pay for a separate insurance. Which, you guessed it, isn't deductible from taxes. As far as a company's concerned, if the employee costs 100 EUR "fully loaded", they only get around 55-60 EUR in hand. Also, when comparing with the US, don't forget that VAT is at 20-25% depending on the country. And, at least in France, VAT is levied on some taxes (yup), like for example electricity and gas. [0] https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/california/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/califor... [1] https://simulateur-ir-ifi.impots.gouv.fr/calcul_impot/2022/simplifie/index.htm https://simulateur-ir-ifi.impots.gouv.fr/calcul_impot/2022/s...
balfirevic 4y ago
> and if I still don't find anything new by then I get 50% indefinitely So you can just retire after being fired? > In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me. That's certainly not universally true in Europe.
- sweaty 4y ago
  Yes, but you don't tend to get fired on permanent contracts to begin with and it's much more enticing to find something new especially considering work-life balance is very very good, I work maybe 24 hours at most with my company explicitly putting your personal life before work because a healthy employee is a healthy employer. You also still pay taxes over the 50% income you're receiving and taxes are high, so it pushes you to find something new -eventually-.
- twaway23 4y ago
  > So you can just retire after being fired? Not in my country (in Europe). You get unemployment benefits for up to 2+ years that is a percentage of your salary up to a certain level, depending on your job history in the last 2-3 years. The maximum you can get is around $40k USD, which can be difficult because you probably have a mortgage and other expenses that were calibrated to a much higher salary. You are also required to actively apply for jobs, and you may be required to take a job application course. I think you can even be assigned to a job interview if you delay. It is not intended as a "free" paid vacation. I think that even in some cases you are theoretically required to take any job anywhere in the country even if you have to move, but I haven't heard of anyone who had to do that. I assume they look at your social situation (family etc.) Every 2 weeks you need to send in a form where you state that you have been actively looking for work and your financial situation is unchanged. If you forget to check some boxes, you lose all your money for the 2 weeks. Vacation is also regulated and you need to inform your local government and in some cases you will not receive money for the period. You are assumed to spend a full working week applying for jobs. After 2 years you are placed into a different type of program where you don't get a fixed amount, but you get money according to what the local government decides you need. That means you would need to sell your big house and move to a cheaper appartement if you want to get any support. If you had any savings, you would probably have to spend them before getting any assistance.
apetresc 4y ago
Sorry, what? Am I misunderstanding? In Europe after you get fired, you can opt to just draw 50% of your old salary indefinitely? Who's paying it?
- windmaster 4y ago
  That's certainly not true in all European countries. In Switzerland, for example, you get 70% (80 for very low salaries) of your old salary for 1.5 years (2 years if you're over 50). After that, if you still don't have a job, you're on your own (if you're broke, you can apply for social welfare).
- sweaty 4y ago
  >Who's paying it? Very rich people and large companies, generally.
- balfirevic 4y ago
  > In Europe after you get fired, you can opt to just draw 50% of your old salary indefinitely? No, definitely not in "Europe" in general (well, according to sweaty you can in some parts of Europe, although I have my doubts).
- olabyne 4y ago
  Lmao, americans shocked when they realized that proper social welfare is a thing always baffles me. To reply to you genuine question : 1. Yes it is a thing. 2. Everybody is paying for it through taxes.
  - kaashif 4y ago
    50% of yoursalary is not a simple safety net and is extremely excessive for well-paid software engineers of the sort being laid off at e.g. Twitter. I support a modest minimum income provided by the government, but 50% of salary indefinitely is insane, it only makes sense if everyone is low paid.
- peruvian 4y ago
  Properly taxed wealthy people and corporations.
PeterStuer 4y ago
As a European I have never heard of such things.
wreath 4y ago
> after which it's 75% up to 2 years, and if I still don't find anything new by then I get 50% indefinitely. But this is not paid by the company, right? Where in Europe do companies have to pay you 6 months for firing you?
whoooooo123 4y ago
Which country is that? Those benefits are insanely generous - the type that would make me never want to start a company there.

by sweaty 4y ago

oytis 4y ago

> When shit hits the fan, you better have been saving. In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me. I wonder where this happy country is. In Germany it is already a common knowledge that relying on state for your retirement is a sure recipe for poverty in the old age.

onli 4y ago
France would fit.
dopidopHN 4y ago
It’s probably France
patates 4y ago
> In Germany it is already a common knowledge that relying on state for your retirement is a sure recipe for poverty in the old age. Is it? I'm living in Germany since so many years and nobody told me this. They send me estimates about the money I'd be getting when retiring regularly, and while it'd mean downsizing, I'd not be poor with the amounts named.
- hankerito 4y ago
  Assuming you are somewhere in IT and earn above the average, you will be okay-ish. People with lower incomes will benefit less. But if you look at that receipt and consider inflation, the extreme rise in rent in Germany, etc and all of that over maybe 20-30 years from you ending your career. It becomes less. There are adjustments for inflation, but still. These high pension values are also quite sure to be unsustainable for the government, as the workforce shrinks quite dramatically and people still get older. Generally, people are advised to put some money for retirement on the side, if they can. If you are in a position to put some money aside probably try to do some research. "Geldanlage für Faule" by Sina Groß is a very down to earth starting place.
  - egeozcan 4y ago
    Great reply! To be honest, It's easy to forget about the inflation. Well, worst case, one could make more kids and invent their own "take care of your parents" ponzi-scheme, hehe. Seriously though, in Germany, you always get this sense that everybody seems to know what they are doing until ??it hits the fan and you realize all that time nobody had cared about what's coming.
  - jansan 4y ago
    It is guaraneed to be less value in 20-30 years, because Germany's pensions are transferred directly from the pension fee deducted from salary of employees. And since in 20-30 years you will have a totally diffeerent ratio of number of employees vs. pensioners, the cake will be smaller and will have to be distributed to more people. No matter how inflation or anything works out in future, pensioners will then have less than pensioners now, who more or less live in paradise.
    - Tainnor 4y ago
      It's wise to be prepared for this scenario for the reasons you mention, but in 20-30 years a lot can obviously change; either a change to the way the pensions are funded (this already started happening to a small extent) or a sudden influx of qualified (!) migrants. I wouldn't bet on any of it happening, but predicting the future is always hard.

throwaway4aday 4y ago

Those benefits are ludicrous. How can any small company or startup survive if they have to contend with those kinds of requirements? If I were a business owner wherever you are I'd restrict my hiring as much as possible and try to find ways to not hire anyone, probably by contracting work out to other businesses or offshore completely.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
Those benefits are not paid by the company, but by the state. That's one of the reasons why cash-in-hand salaries are lower in most "socialist" European countries: the State takes a big fat cut out of it (47% in France), so it can pay for these benefits.
- dboreham 4y ago
  Taxes in the USA are often just as high (remember to add in state and local taxes for an apples to apples comparison with European countries). And for that you get no "socialism" -- no healthcare until you're old, for example.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    People forget to count the corporate taxes on the employers in Europe (to support the welfare state) which lowers the salaries of workers making the calculation look like taxes are similar.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    Income taxes (Federal + CA) seem to be roughly in the same ballpark as France based on [0]. A French income tax simulator is available at [1]. This is the "simplified" version. What matters is box 1AJ for salaried income. For 100000 USD it's actually a bit higher than for 100000 EUR. However, as another commenter said, income tax is not the full story - far from it. There are other taxes that you have to pay. Also, while social security comes out of your paycheck, it's considered taxable income in France for the purposes of the income tax. Also, social security is usually insufficient, so you usually have to pay for a separate insurance. Which, you guessed it, isn't deductible from taxes. As far as a company's concerned, if the employee costs 100 EUR "fully loaded", they only get around 55-60 EUR in hand. Also, when comparing with the US, don't forget that VAT is at 20-25% depending on the country. And, at least in France, VAT is levied on some taxes (yup), like for example electricity and gas. [0] https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/california/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/califor... [1] https://simulateur-ir-ifi.impots.gouv.fr/calcul_impot/2022/simplifie/index.htm https://simulateur-ir-ifi.impots.gouv.fr/calcul_impot/2022/s...

balfirevic 4y ago

> and if I still don't find anything new by then I get 50% indefinitely So you can just retire after being fired? > In Europe, the money I make is money I get to really use, because the rest is taken care of for me. That's certainly not universally true in Europe.

sweaty 4y ago
Yes, but you don't tend to get fired on permanent contracts to begin with and it's much more enticing to find something new especially considering work-life balance is very very good, I work maybe 24 hours at most with my company explicitly putting your personal life before work because a healthy employee is a healthy employer. You also still pay taxes over the 50% income you're receiving and taxes are high, so it pushes you to find something new -eventually-.
twaway23 4y ago
> So you can just retire after being fired? Not in my country (in Europe). You get unemployment benefits for up to 2+ years that is a percentage of your salary up to a certain level, depending on your job history in the last 2-3 years. The maximum you can get is around $40k USD, which can be difficult because you probably have a mortgage and other expenses that were calibrated to a much higher salary. You are also required to actively apply for jobs, and you may be required to take a job application course. I think you can even be assigned to a job interview if you delay. It is not intended as a "free" paid vacation. I think that even in some cases you are theoretically required to take any job anywhere in the country even if you have to move, but I haven't heard of anyone who had to do that. I assume they look at your social situation (family etc.) Every 2 weeks you need to send in a form where you state that you have been actively looking for work and your financial situation is unchanged. If you forget to check some boxes, you lose all your money for the 2 weeks. Vacation is also regulated and you need to inform your local government and in some cases you will not receive money for the period. You are assumed to spend a full working week applying for jobs. After 2 years you are placed into a different type of program where you don't get a fixed amount, but you get money according to what the local government decides you need. That means you would need to sell your big house and move to a cheaper appartement if you want to get any support. If you had any savings, you would probably have to spend them before getting any assistance.

apetresc 4y ago

Sorry, what? Am I misunderstanding? In Europe after you get fired, you can opt to just draw 50% of your old salary indefinitely? Who's paying it?

windmaster 4y ago
That's certainly not true in all European countries. In Switzerland, for example, you get 70% (80 for very low salaries) of your old salary for 1.5 years (2 years if you're over 50). After that, if you still don't have a job, you're on your own (if you're broke, you can apply for social welfare).
sweaty 4y ago
>Who's paying it? Very rich people and large companies, generally.
balfirevic 4y ago
> In Europe after you get fired, you can opt to just draw 50% of your old salary indefinitely? No, definitely not in "Europe" in general (well, according to sweaty you can in some parts of Europe, although I have my doubts).
olabyne 4y ago
Lmao, americans shocked when they realized that proper social welfare is a thing always baffles me. To reply to you genuine question : 1. Yes it is a thing. 2. Everybody is paying for it through taxes.
- kaashif 4y ago
  50% of yoursalary is not a simple safety net and is extremely excessive for well-paid software engineers of the sort being laid off at e.g. Twitter. I support a modest minimum income provided by the government, but 50% of salary indefinitely is insane, it only makes sense if everyone is low paid.
peruvian 4y ago
Properly taxed wealthy people and corporations.

PeterStuer 4y ago

As a European I have never heard of such things.

wreath 4y ago

> after which it's 75% up to 2 years, and if I still don't find anything new by then I get 50% indefinitely. But this is not paid by the company, right? Where in Europe do companies have to pay you 6 months for firing you?

whoooooo123 4y ago

Which country is that? Those benefits are insanely generous - the type that would make me never want to start a company there.