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The GUI apps have the benefit of being easier for onboarding. We've redesigned the workplace to deal with constant employee turnover. I guess they also make mo

The GUI apps have the benefit of being easier for onboarding. We've redesigned the workplace to deal with constant employee turnover. I guess they also make more sense to management since it looks like something they could do themselves, or at least understand.

tremon 4y ago
This is a good observation. Constant employee turnover also reduces worker productivity, as it means most current employees are juniors in their role (regardless of what their title says).
Scoundreller 4y ago
Problem is the GUI could have shortcuts for everything, but usually won’t. It doesn’t help that the evaluators for a new system will also approach from the perspective of a new user, even though none of them will be a new user in some months. I’ve so wanted to create auto-hot-keys for many tasks, but end up having to use (x,y) clicks where I get boned every design touch-up (deliberate or side-effect of another change).
mike_hearn 4y ago
You can have both. GUIs were a breakthrough because they enabled much better discoverability, allowed images in the UI and so on. But they were also designed to be fully keyboardable and low latency. Web tech broke all that: - UI was/still is very high latency. Keystrokes input whilst the browser is waiting do not buffer, unlike in classical mainframe/terminal designs. They're just lost or worse might randomly interrupt your current transaction. - HTML has no concept of keyboard shortcuts, accelerator keys, menus, context menus, command lines and other power user features that allow regular users to go fast. We adopted web tech even for productivity/crud apps, because browsers solved distribution at a time when Microsoft was badly dropping the ball on it. That solved problems for developers and allowed more rapid iteration, but ended up yielding lower productivity than older generations of apps for people who became highly skilled.
- tomcam 4y ago
  > HTML has no concept of keyboard shortcuts, accelerator keys, menus, context menus, command lines and other power user features that allow regular users to go fast. HTML has had a limited concept of accelerator keys for years, but it's not pretty: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Global_attributes/accesskey https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Global_att...
- hnick 4y ago
  Well browsers solved multiple other issues too: cross platform apps, updating all clients in a single place, sharing data between devices, and the most important for many developers - switching software from an ownership to a rental model, killing piracy, and easy access to user metrics and data. All of these (except logging on to the same data from all my devices, which is nice) benefit the developer at the expense of the user.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    > All of these (except logging on to the same data from all my devices, which is nice) benefit the developer at the expense of the user. Glad you pointed that out. And, in the most prevalent application of Conway's law[0], those changes enabled and are entrenched by the "agile" practices in software development. Incremental work, continuous deployment, endless bugfixing and webapps fit each other like a glove (the latex kind that's used for deep examination of users' behavior). It also enables data siloes and prevents any app from becoming a commodity - making software one of the strongest supplier-driven markets out there, which is why the frequent dismissal of legitimate complaints, "vote with your feet/wallet", does not work. ---- [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law
  - sirjaz 4y ago
    You missed privacy. The user lost privacy with webapps.
    - hnick 4y ago
      I figured that came under "easy access to user metrics and data", but I did consider some kind of rhyme linking piracy to privacy but it was a little early in the day to commit that sin. It's probably worth mentioning twice anyway.

tremon 4y ago

This is a good observation. Constant employee turnover also reduces worker productivity, as it means most current employees are juniors in their role (regardless of what their title says).

Scoundreller 4y ago

Problem is the GUI could have shortcuts for everything, but usually won’t. It doesn’t help that the evaluators for a new system will also approach from the perspective of a new user, even though none of them will be a new user in some months. I’ve so wanted to create auto-hot-keys for many tasks, but end up having to use (x,y) clicks where I get boned every design touch-up (deliberate or side-effect of another change).

mike_hearn 4y ago

You can have both. GUIs were a breakthrough because they enabled much better discoverability, allowed images in the UI and so on. But they were also designed to be fully keyboardable and low latency. Web tech broke all that: - UI was/still is very high latency. Keystrokes input whilst the browser is waiting do not buffer, unlike in classical mainframe/terminal designs. They're just lost or worse might randomly interrupt your current transaction. - HTML has no concept of keyboard shortcuts, accelerator keys, menus, context menus, command lines and other power user features that allow regular users to go fast. We adopted web tech even for productivity/crud apps, because browsers solved distribution at a time when Microsoft was badly dropping the ball on it. That solved problems for developers and allowed more rapid iteration, but ended up yielding lower productivity than older generations of apps for people who became highly skilled.

tomcam 4y ago
> HTML has no concept of keyboard shortcuts, accelerator keys, menus, context menus, command lines and other power user features that allow regular users to go fast. HTML has had a limited concept of accelerator keys for years, but it's not pretty: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Global_attributes/accesskey https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Global_att...
hnick 4y ago
Well browsers solved multiple other issues too: cross platform apps, updating all clients in a single place, sharing data between devices, and the most important for many developers - switching software from an ownership to a rental model, killing piracy, and easy access to user metrics and data. All of these (except logging on to the same data from all my devices, which is nice) benefit the developer at the expense of the user.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  > All of these (except logging on to the same data from all my devices, which is nice) benefit the developer at the expense of the user. Glad you pointed that out. And, in the most prevalent application of Conway's law[0], those changes enabled and are entrenched by the "agile" practices in software development. Incremental work, continuous deployment, endless bugfixing and webapps fit each other like a glove (the latex kind that's used for deep examination of users' behavior). It also enables data siloes and prevents any app from becoming a commodity - making software one of the strongest supplier-driven markets out there, which is why the frequent dismissal of legitimate complaints, "vote with your feet/wallet", does not work. ---- [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law
- sirjaz 4y ago
  You missed privacy. The user lost privacy with webapps.
  - hnick 4y ago
    I figured that came under "easy access to user metrics and data", but I did consider some kind of rhyme linking piracy to privacy but it was a little early in the day to commit that sin. It's probably worth mentioning twice anyway.