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Informative, but strange circular arguments in that article, especially from a scientific process perspective. There are a ton of questions that Higgs cannot a

Informative, but strange circular arguments in that article, especially from a scientific process perspective. There are a ton of questions that Higgs cannot answer already and yet if we find Higgs precisely, research comes to a stop? It almost feels like there's a split between theoretical physcists and everyone else, with theoreticians saying if you take away our broken toy, you better replace it with something we can play with! Given Nature already trumped Einstein, his contemporaries, and all since, I think we can be fairly secure that we will ALWAYS having find something new to learn or discover from practical science. After all, that's how we used to almost exclusively learn before scientists went a bit crazy with maths. These days there seem to be many more models out there than there is good science behind it - at least to a layperson like me. :)

jerf 15y ago
The meta-point is more that we need to find a deviation from the current Standard Model. Further confirmations of the Standard Model are in a sense bad news; we want it to come apart so we can examine the pieces. It is true that if we can produce the Higgs we can then study it, but if it then turns out to precisely fit the parameters predicted by the SM, that's bad. This argument should also be read along with the fact that last I knew, none of the accelerators have been able to turn up anything else particularly interesting either. Some of the supersymmetry theories predicted particles in ranges that we should be able to see (barely) and none of them have appeared. We're down to hoping that there's something else to find in the extra room the LHC will give us at full blast or we really will be up a creek. "These days there seem to be many more models out there than there is good science behind it - at least to a layperson like me." And in fact your observation is connected; particle physics has been starved for data and in the interim have come up with all kinds of things, trying to find things that may have testable consequences. This would go a lot better with some data.
- bdonlan 15y ago
  Surely there's still gravity left to explain away at the quantum level?
  - btilly 15y ago
    There are irreconcilable differences between general relativity and quantum mechanics. A lot of thought has gone into the problem, with little success. But even if someone did come up with something concrete, what then? Try to come up with an interesting experiment that combines gravity and quantum mechanics. I know of only one, and whether it tests anything at all depends on which interpretation of QM you have. Based on a Geiger counter, either place, or don't place a heavy weight. Try to measure its gravitational pull regardless of what you do. It only measures a pull if you placed the object. If you believe in the Everett interpretation, this says that gravity, at least to a first order approximation, splits with the universe. We do not have sensitive enough instruments to measure non-linear differences from GR. History tells us that theoretical science done in the absence of experiment is unlikely to lead to useful knowledge.
    - martinkallstrom 15y ago
      What is this experiment called? Any links to read up on?
      - atakan_gurkan 15y ago
        perhaps reading this http://www.hedweb.com/everett/everett.htm http://www.hedweb.com/everett/everett.htm (especially question 7) will help, even though it does not give the name for such an experiment.
  - neutronicus 15y ago
    I once saw a lecture by Freeman Dyson where he said that if one were to build a graviton detector with the cross-sectional area of the Earth and point it at the sun for the age of the Earth, the number of gravitons one would expect to detect: Four. So, whether there's science still to be done and whether we'll ever be capable of building apparatus that can actually test it are two different questions. For instance, what if the next interesting thing post-Higgs Boson happens at energies 1000 times bigger? There's a good chance we'll never build an accelerator that powerful.

jerf 15y ago

The meta-point is more that we need to find a deviation from the current Standard Model. Further confirmations of the Standard Model are in a sense bad news; we want it to come apart so we can examine the pieces. It is true that if we can produce the Higgs we can then study it, but if it then turns out to precisely fit the parameters predicted by the SM, that's bad. This argument should also be read along with the fact that last I knew, none of the accelerators have been able to turn up anything else particularly interesting either. Some of the supersymmetry theories predicted particles in ranges that we should be able to see (barely) and none of them have appeared. We're down to hoping that there's something else to find in the extra room the LHC will give us at full blast or we really will be up a creek. "These days there seem to be many more models out there than there is good science behind it - at least to a layperson like me." And in fact your observation is connected; particle physics has been starved for data and in the interim have come up with all kinds of things, trying to find things that may have testable consequences. This would go a lot better with some data.

bdonlan 15y ago
Surely there's still gravity left to explain away at the quantum level?
- btilly 15y ago
  There are irreconcilable differences between general relativity and quantum mechanics. A lot of thought has gone into the problem, with little success. But even if someone did come up with something concrete, what then? Try to come up with an interesting experiment that combines gravity and quantum mechanics. I know of only one, and whether it tests anything at all depends on which interpretation of QM you have. Based on a Geiger counter, either place, or don't place a heavy weight. Try to measure its gravitational pull regardless of what you do. It only measures a pull if you placed the object. If you believe in the Everett interpretation, this says that gravity, at least to a first order approximation, splits with the universe. We do not have sensitive enough instruments to measure non-linear differences from GR. History tells us that theoretical science done in the absence of experiment is unlikely to lead to useful knowledge.
  - martinkallstrom 15y ago
    What is this experiment called? Any links to read up on?
    - atakan_gurkan 15y ago
      perhaps reading this http://www.hedweb.com/everett/everett.htm http://www.hedweb.com/everett/everett.htm (especially question 7) will help, even though it does not give the name for such an experiment.
- neutronicus 15y ago
  I once saw a lecture by Freeman Dyson where he said that if one were to build a graviton detector with the cross-sectional area of the Earth and point it at the sun for the age of the Earth, the number of gravitons one would expect to detect: Four. So, whether there's science still to be done and whether we'll ever be capable of building apparatus that can actually test it are two different questions. For instance, what if the next interesting thing post-Higgs Boson happens at energies 1000 times bigger? There's a good chance we'll never build an accelerator that powerful.