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If only there was an instantaneous, nearly free (cost per transaction), opensource, anyone-can-access, infinitely scalable, infinitely interoperable, payment ra

If only there was an instantaneous, nearly free (cost per transaction), opensource, anyone-can-access, infinitely scalable, infinitely interoperable, payment rail that we could start building solutions on top of...

tombert 4y ago
If you're referring to cryptocurrency, isn't the average cost-per-transaction for something like Ethereum on the order of $40-$50?
- pshc 4y ago
  It’s more like $1 these days due to the bear market, granted these remain high fees. Cheaper payments can be sent on a zero-knowledge Layer 2 like starknet or zksync. Beta services but usable (except the whole on-ramp off-ramp part). Once sharding is implemented, fees are likely to drop to sub-cent levels. Ideally payments would be anonymized on a privacy-preserving L3, but I don’t think those exist yet
  - zeroclip 4y ago
    Aztec is live on mainnet: https://aztec.network/ https://aztec.network/
- landemva 4y ago
  Just sending a payment is typically cheap for eth. Calling a lot of code can get expensive for the code execution costs, though L2s are available for that if you do it regularly.
- djschnei 4y ago
  Not Ethereum. Ethereum has a lot of massive problems. Not 'crypto' which is by and large a scam. I'm talking about Bitcoin with The Lightning Network. Most payments I make over Lightning, regardless of size, carry a fee of fractions of a cent. On an average day I make 50+ payments over lightning - on aggregate the fees add up to less than $.01
- zeroclip 4y ago
  Parent is a Bitcoin maximalist, just to be mindful. Currently it's about $0.85 USD to send ETH or $2.50 USD to send ERC20[1]. Most people will suggest not using a L1 as a payment system, but instead something application-specific like a rollup or state channel. In Ethereum those will be in the range of 5 - 20 cents per transaction[2], and may be much lower after EIP-4844[3]. Other non-Ethereum blockchains and L2s have similar range of low fees. [1] https://etherscan.io/gastracker https://etherscan.io/gastracker [2] https://l2fees.info/ https://l2fees.info/ [3] https://www.eip4844.com/ https://www.eip4844.com/
  - djschnei 4y ago
    I made characteristic claims about a solution I see fit for the OP problem statement. When he asked if I was talking about ETH, I told them I wasn't. You're hijacking a thread to push your form of maximalism. Would you like to discuss the differences between ETH/Altcoins and Bitcoin/Lightning? Or would you rather just label me a maximalist to dismiss the claim?
    - zeroclip 4y ago
      Sorry but the statement "Not 'crypto' which is by and large a scam" is a common statement from Bitcoin maximalists who refuse to engage with the rest of the crypto currency system. "Crypto" is a broad umbrella and Bitcoin exists underneath it.
      - djschnei 4y ago
        I do believe 99% of crypto projects vastly misrepresent their risks, their control/influence structures, and their intent. I do believe 99% of crypto projects are clever ways to hop on a hype train to farm dollars from retail. I do believe Bitcoin is different. Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency -- 'crypto' is colloquial term to specify an industry.
edmcnulty101 4y ago
what's the cost of lightning Network these days?? I like where your head's at but the fact that it's possible to do an overthrow of the system if you have 51% of the miners worries me.
- landemva 4y ago
  > overthrow of the system if you have 51% You may want to look into this further as it is fascinating. For example, a theoretical reorg to unspend or respend your own transaction does not allow signing transactions for others.
- djschnei 4y ago
  Average fees are fractions of a cent. Centralized systems are much easier to capture and historically always are. A 51% attack on Bitcoin/Lightning isn't impossible, but incredibly unlikely. https://www.swanbitcoin.com/fact-check-darpa-funded-report-on-blockchain-centralization/ https://www.swanbitcoin.com/fact-check-darpa-funded-report-o...

tombert 4y ago

If you're referring to cryptocurrency, isn't the average cost-per-transaction for something like Ethereum on the order of $40-$50?

pshc 4y ago
It’s more like $1 these days due to the bear market, granted these remain high fees. Cheaper payments can be sent on a zero-knowledge Layer 2 like starknet or zksync. Beta services but usable (except the whole on-ramp off-ramp part). Once sharding is implemented, fees are likely to drop to sub-cent levels. Ideally payments would be anonymized on a privacy-preserving L3, but I don’t think those exist yet
- zeroclip 4y ago
  Aztec is live on mainnet: https://aztec.network/ https://aztec.network/
landemva 4y ago
Just sending a payment is typically cheap for eth. Calling a lot of code can get expensive for the code execution costs, though L2s are available for that if you do it regularly.
djschnei 4y ago
Not Ethereum. Ethereum has a lot of massive problems. Not 'crypto' which is by and large a scam. I'm talking about Bitcoin with The Lightning Network. Most payments I make over Lightning, regardless of size, carry a fee of fractions of a cent. On an average day I make 50+ payments over lightning - on aggregate the fees add up to less than $.01
zeroclip 4y ago
Parent is a Bitcoin maximalist, just to be mindful. Currently it's about $0.85 USD to send ETH or $2.50 USD to send ERC20[1]. Most people will suggest not using a L1 as a payment system, but instead something application-specific like a rollup or state channel. In Ethereum those will be in the range of 5 - 20 cents per transaction[2], and may be much lower after EIP-4844[3]. Other non-Ethereum blockchains and L2s have similar range of low fees. [1] https://etherscan.io/gastracker https://etherscan.io/gastracker [2] https://l2fees.info/ https://l2fees.info/ [3] https://www.eip4844.com/ https://www.eip4844.com/
- djschnei 4y ago
  I made characteristic claims about a solution I see fit for the OP problem statement. When he asked if I was talking about ETH, I told them I wasn't. You're hijacking a thread to push your form of maximalism. Would you like to discuss the differences between ETH/Altcoins and Bitcoin/Lightning? Or would you rather just label me a maximalist to dismiss the claim?
  - zeroclip 4y ago
    Sorry but the statement "Not 'crypto' which is by and large a scam" is a common statement from Bitcoin maximalists who refuse to engage with the rest of the crypto currency system. "Crypto" is a broad umbrella and Bitcoin exists underneath it.
    - djschnei 4y ago
      I do believe 99% of crypto projects vastly misrepresent their risks, their control/influence structures, and their intent. I do believe 99% of crypto projects are clever ways to hop on a hype train to farm dollars from retail. I do believe Bitcoin is different. Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency -- 'crypto' is colloquial term to specify an industry.

edmcnulty101 4y ago

what's the cost of lightning Network these days?? I like where your head's at but the fact that it's possible to do an overthrow of the system if you have 51% of the miners worries me.

landemva 4y ago
> overthrow of the system if you have 51% You may want to look into this further as it is fascinating. For example, a theoretical reorg to unspend or respend your own transaction does not allow signing transactions for others.
djschnei 4y ago
Average fees are fractions of a cent. Centralized systems are much easier to capture and historically always are. A 51% attack on Bitcoin/Lightning isn't impossible, but incredibly unlikely. https://www.swanbitcoin.com/fact-check-darpa-funded-report-on-blockchain-centralization/ https://www.swanbitcoin.com/fact-check-darpa-funded-report-o...