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The next 'move' for cheaters is to use chess computers in a way that passes 'Chess Turing Test' and makes cheating indistinguishable from normal human play unde

The next 'move' for cheaters is to use chess computers in a way that passes 'Chess Turing Test' and makes cheating indistinguishable from normal human play under analysis. When there is money in the game, there is incentive to cheat. > The report says dozens of grandmasters have been caught cheating on the website, including four of the top-100 players in the world who confessed. There are probably smart cheaters already playing who are able to evade detection.

bombcar 4y ago
The best players only need one or two notes, even something as simple as "there's a good play here" twice a game could throw things dramatically. That is harder, almost as hard as playing for real, but doable. Much easier to just be a mechanical turk for sharkfish or whatever it's called.
somenameforme 4y ago
Cheat detection isn't done by only by move analysis, but by an extensive profiling of a person and games based on many factors beyond even just the moves. For instance one of the easiest ways to catch a weak player cheating is move times. Such a player will have no idea whether a move is trivial or works only due to an exceptionally precise and lengthy series of counter-intuitive calculations that no human could do without a significant think. And so they'll tend to rely both in approximately the same amount of time. Even during the Carlsen-Niemann game it was meta-factors that initially clued Carlsen in. Niemann was playing without any significant effort or tension, in spite of playing in a game where he was outplaying the world champion. And after the game he was unable to explain his own ideas, proposed ideas that were simply losing, referenced games that did not exist, and was generally (relative to the class of player here) clueless. None of that final section is definitive proof of cheating to say the least, but it helps create a probabilistic profile of a player (and a game). The point of this is that even a computer that played human-like (which I would argue will not happen for the distantly foreseeable future), would be just one factor among many in busting cheaters. I expect this is why Magnus was also initially reluctant to directly accuse him of cheating. He felt he was cheating based on the meta-factors and probably got folks more capable than himself to evaluate the technical factors, and when that also came up as a redflag - yeah, the dude's a cheater.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  What happens when it’s a strong chess player who is cheating? Even a strong player can benefit from consulting a computer. Chess games can win fail based on a few moves. A strong player would only need to consult the computer on a few moves to get a considerable advantage.
  - z9znz 4y ago
    > What happens when it’s a strong chess player A strong chess player would have to weigh the risk of losing all their progress and reputation if caught cheating. After this current situation, I expect the penalties for being caught cheating will be severe. Whether the cheater is banned from all future events or not, nobody will want to support them, nobody will want to associate with them, and they will essentially be cast out of the entire chess world.
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    The strongest players would be the "best" cheaters but also the least likely to cheat. Top n players for small n would only need one "this move is important" hint per game to significantly improve their rating. Very hard to detect of course. But when you hear the actual top players talk about chess they genuinely seem interested in playing the game and not so much driven by chasing some accomplishment of winning. It's quite hard to get to that level without having the genuine interest. But also their games are subject to the most scrutiny and study and they themselves will spend a lot of time publicly talking about and analyzing their own games, those "cheat" moves would stand out as ones which were hard to see and had bad explanations after a while.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  This is exactly how I get clued in on how someone is cheating in a shooting game I play. You can tell how experienced someone is based off the gun they use (some are stronger than others), whether they use cover or just run out into open spaces and shoot, how they move, whether they use 'gadgets' like grenades, and so on. A lot of novice players don't even use the sprint function to run. When someone who literally just walks around the map but can laser everyone with headshots (which have a significant damage multiplier)? They're cheating.
pessimizer 4y ago
> makes cheating indistinguishable from normal human play under analysis. From what I understand, Niemann got into trouble because people thought that he wasn't able to adequately provide the analysis i.e. the reasoning behind some of his own moves. You'd need a live auxiliary AI to tutor the cheater in how to explain why a particular move was made.
- HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
  Well, that's only one of many reasons. GM Hikaru was laughing at him on his channel when replaying that interview with Hans - a lot of his answers were strange and deflective. A player at this level should be able to fluently describe their analysis at any move in the game. At one point he described one of his own moves as "a weird move" without offering any explanation, sounding more as if he was observing the move rather than being the one who had actually analyzed it and chosen to play it!
andy_ppp 4y ago
You could train a neural network to filter through likely human moves from the engine's top recommendations and never get caught.
elcomet 4y ago
That's not the next move, that's the past and current move.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
goatlover 4y ago
> The next 'move' for cheaters is to use chess computers in a way that passes 'Chess Turing Test' and makes cheating indistinguishable from normal human play under analysis. If it's indistinguishable from human play, then there is no advantage to cheating with a chess engine. The point of cheating is that the chess engine is stronger than human play and will give you mistake-free moves that put you in winning positions. If all your moves are equivalent to human moves, then you're playing no better than a human, at whatever level that is, let's assume GM 2700-2900. So what advantage does a human GM get from doing that?

bombcar 4y ago

The best players only need one or two notes, even something as simple as "there's a good play here" twice a game could throw things dramatically. That is harder, almost as hard as playing for real, but doable. Much easier to just be a mechanical turk for sharkfish or whatever it's called.

somenameforme 4y ago

Cheat detection isn't done by only by move analysis, but by an extensive profiling of a person and games based on many factors beyond even just the moves. For instance one of the easiest ways to catch a weak player cheating is move times. Such a player will have no idea whether a move is trivial or works only due to an exceptionally precise and lengthy series of counter-intuitive calculations that no human could do without a significant think. And so they'll tend to rely both in approximately the same amount of time. Even during the Carlsen-Niemann game it was meta-factors that initially clued Carlsen in. Niemann was playing without any significant effort or tension, in spite of playing in a game where he was outplaying the world champion. And after the game he was unable to explain his own ideas, proposed ideas that were simply losing, referenced games that did not exist, and was generally (relative to the class of player here) clueless. None of that final section is definitive proof of cheating to say the least, but it helps create a probabilistic profile of a player (and a game). The point of this is that even a computer that played human-like (which I would argue will not happen for the distantly foreseeable future), would be just one factor among many in busting cheaters. I expect this is why Magnus was also initially reluctant to directly accuse him of cheating. He felt he was cheating based on the meta-factors and probably got folks more capable than himself to evaluate the technical factors, and when that also came up as a redflag - yeah, the dude's a cheater.

pyuser583 4y ago
What happens when it’s a strong chess player who is cheating? Even a strong player can benefit from consulting a computer. Chess games can win fail based on a few moves. A strong player would only need to consult the computer on a few moves to get a considerable advantage.
- z9znz 4y ago
  > What happens when it’s a strong chess player A strong chess player would have to weigh the risk of losing all their progress and reputation if caught cheating. After this current situation, I expect the penalties for being caught cheating will be severe. Whether the cheater is banned from all future events or not, nobody will want to support them, nobody will want to associate with them, and they will essentially be cast out of the entire chess world.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  The strongest players would be the "best" cheaters but also the least likely to cheat. Top n players for small n would only need one "this move is important" hint per game to significantly improve their rating. Very hard to detect of course. But when you hear the actual top players talk about chess they genuinely seem interested in playing the game and not so much driven by chasing some accomplishment of winning. It's quite hard to get to that level without having the genuine interest. But also their games are subject to the most scrutiny and study and they themselves will spend a lot of time publicly talking about and analyzing their own games, those "cheat" moves would stand out as ones which were hard to see and had bad explanations after a while.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
This is exactly how I get clued in on how someone is cheating in a shooting game I play. You can tell how experienced someone is based off the gun they use (some are stronger than others), whether they use cover or just run out into open spaces and shoot, how they move, whether they use 'gadgets' like grenades, and so on. A lot of novice players don't even use the sprint function to run. When someone who literally just walks around the map but can laser everyone with headshots (which have a significant damage multiplier)? They're cheating.

pessimizer 4y ago

> makes cheating indistinguishable from normal human play under analysis. From what I understand, Niemann got into trouble because people thought that he wasn't able to adequately provide the analysis i.e. the reasoning behind some of his own moves. You'd need a live auxiliary AI to tutor the cheater in how to explain why a particular move was made.

HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
Well, that's only one of many reasons. GM Hikaru was laughing at him on his channel when replaying that interview with Hans - a lot of his answers were strange and deflective. A player at this level should be able to fluently describe their analysis at any move in the game. At one point he described one of his own moves as "a weird move" without offering any explanation, sounding more as if he was observing the move rather than being the one who had actually analyzed it and chosen to play it!

andy_ppp 4y ago

You could train a neural network to filter through likely human moves from the engine's top recommendations and never get caught.

elcomet 4y ago

That's not the next move, that's the past and current move.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

goatlover 4y ago

> The next 'move' for cheaters is to use chess computers in a way that passes 'Chess Turing Test' and makes cheating indistinguishable from normal human play under analysis. If it's indistinguishable from human play, then there is no advantage to cheating with a chess engine. The point of cheating is that the chess engine is stronger than human play and will give you mistake-free moves that put you in winning positions. If all your moves are equivalent to human moves, then you're playing no better than a human, at whatever level that is, let's assume GM 2700-2900. So what advantage does a human GM get from doing that?