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America's "decline" is mostly a function of bad government policy the past 15 years or so that lead to massively wasteful over-investment of people and capital

by Newgy 15y ago

America's "decline" is mostly a function of bad government policy the past 15 years or so that lead to massively wasteful over-investment of people and capital into finance and real estate. Break up the banks, let the market (not the Fed) set interest rates, deregulate health care markets, and balance the budget.

steve-howard 15y ago
I don't think there's a single level of government where I live ('burbs of Chicago) that has a balanced budget. Perhaps I'm overly pessimistic, but I especially don't think the federal government ever will again.
TomOfTTB 15y ago
I think you’re projecting what you want the problem to be on top of what the problem actually is (apologies in advance for the tl;dr factor below) The economic crisis of the last couple years is not America’s problem. America’s problem is we became very successful a few decades ago and got very rich because of it. That wealth led us to create more and more jobs that “serviced” us. So our economy became service oriented while poor countries (primarily in Asia) were happy to take our manufacturing jobs. As the article says “Designed by Apple in California, Manufactured in China” The U.S. still leads in designing things but almost everything we design is manufactured elsewhere and the people in those other countries are putting together just enough wealth to send their kids to college. Meaning eventually we’ll start to see more design work out of Asia at which point we’re going to start losing a lot of our wealth and we’ll be left with a service economy that no longer has enough wealth to support itself. Fixing this problem means competing on every level with countries like China. But we can’t do that because we don’t want to be like China. Foxconn could open a factory in Texas tomorrow and get enough Mexicans to staff it by the end of the week but our laws won’t allow them to pay the low wages they pay in China. These laws are based on a good instinct on our part but it’s an instinct born out of Arrogance. “We are Americans so we can dictate what something is worth even if someone else is willing to manufacture it for less” But the problem is we can’t dictate what something is worth. So China, who is willing to allow their people to be treated far more ruthlessly, always wins out. Until we come to terms with that and find some way to fix it we’ll still have a problem (For the record I think automation through robotics might be the key to fixing this to a certain extent but that’s a whole different conversation)
- freemarketteddy 15y ago
  The automation through robotics is causing technological unemployment and a further loss of jobs for the manufacturing class. I can see how things will get more and more automated but I dont get how it can alleviate the plight of the american middle class.
- josefresco 15y ago
  Inviting Chinese companies to the US to employ Mexicans at Chinese rates is the way to 'save America'?
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    Probably not, but you have to accept the fact you can't go back to the time when American manufactured goods could compete in price with their Chinese counterparts while employing a similarly sized workforce. And I wouldn't blame your past few federal governments either. This is a problem that has been steadily developing for more than half a century.
  - TomOfTTB 15y ago
    I just defined the problem I didn't put forth a solution. But your indignation shows exactly why the problem is so significant. Having said that I'm not saying it isn't the way to save America either. The problem right now is while Chinese adults are making low wages they're managing to put away enough money to send their kids to University. Which in turn is causing Universities to spring up in China. If those graduates stay in China they'll innovate there and almost inevitably steal some of the high level work done by Americans (such as technology design and engineering). Then we start to lose those jobs and the wealth starts flowing into Asia. So the question is: Isn't it better for the U.S. to have the Mexican adult pay for his child to go to a U.S. University and innovate here?
    - polymatter 15y ago
      I think its worth being aware that you are talking about Chinese adults working for low wages and _pulling_ _themselves_ _and_ _their_ _families_ _out_ _of_ _extreme_ _poverty_. And that is a good thing.
shibboleth 15y ago
Would you mind expanding upon your views regarding the deregulation of health care? More specifically, do you believe that provider-related antitrust laws have harmed the public since their emergence in the 1970s?

by Newgy 15y ago

steve-howard 15y ago

I don't think there's a single level of government where I live ('burbs of Chicago) that has a balanced budget. Perhaps I'm overly pessimistic, but I especially don't think the federal government ever will again.

TomOfTTB 15y ago

I think you’re projecting what you want the problem to be on top of what the problem actually is (apologies in advance for the tl;dr factor below) The economic crisis of the last couple years is not America’s problem. America’s problem is we became very successful a few decades ago and got very rich because of it. That wealth led us to create more and more jobs that “serviced” us. So our economy became service oriented while poor countries (primarily in Asia) were happy to take our manufacturing jobs. As the article says “Designed by Apple in California, Manufactured in China” The U.S. still leads in designing things but almost everything we design is manufactured elsewhere and the people in those other countries are putting together just enough wealth to send their kids to college. Meaning eventually we’ll start to see more design work out of Asia at which point we’re going to start losing a lot of our wealth and we’ll be left with a service economy that no longer has enough wealth to support itself. Fixing this problem means competing on every level with countries like China. But we can’t do that because we don’t want to be like China. Foxconn could open a factory in Texas tomorrow and get enough Mexicans to staff it by the end of the week but our laws won’t allow them to pay the low wages they pay in China. These laws are based on a good instinct on our part but it’s an instinct born out of Arrogance. “We are Americans so we can dictate what something is worth even if someone else is willing to manufacture it for less” But the problem is we can’t dictate what something is worth. So China, who is willing to allow their people to be treated far more ruthlessly, always wins out. Until we come to terms with that and find some way to fix it we’ll still have a problem (For the record I think automation through robotics might be the key to fixing this to a certain extent but that’s a whole different conversation)

freemarketteddy 15y ago
The automation through robotics is causing technological unemployment and a further loss of jobs for the manufacturing class. I can see how things will get more and more automated but I dont get how it can alleviate the plight of the american middle class.
josefresco 15y ago
Inviting Chinese companies to the US to employ Mexicans at Chinese rates is the way to 'save America'?
- rbanffy 15y ago
  Probably not, but you have to accept the fact you can't go back to the time when American manufactured goods could compete in price with their Chinese counterparts while employing a similarly sized workforce. And I wouldn't blame your past few federal governments either. This is a problem that has been steadily developing for more than half a century.
- TomOfTTB 15y ago
  I just defined the problem I didn't put forth a solution. But your indignation shows exactly why the problem is so significant. Having said that I'm not saying it isn't the way to save America either. The problem right now is while Chinese adults are making low wages they're managing to put away enough money to send their kids to University. Which in turn is causing Universities to spring up in China. If those graduates stay in China they'll innovate there and almost inevitably steal some of the high level work done by Americans (such as technology design and engineering). Then we start to lose those jobs and the wealth starts flowing into Asia. So the question is: Isn't it better for the U.S. to have the Mexican adult pay for his child to go to a U.S. University and innovate here?
  - polymatter 15y ago
    I think its worth being aware that you are talking about Chinese adults working for low wages and _pulling_ _themselves_ _and_ _their_ _families_ _out_ _of_ _extreme_ _poverty_. And that is a good thing.

shibboleth 15y ago

Would you mind expanding upon your views regarding the deregulation of health care? More specifically, do you believe that provider-related antitrust laws have harmed the public since their emergence in the 1970s?