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Reading this article I'm once again struck by how, as with so many problems in the U.S. is so rare to look outside their borders to learn from what is working i

by GZJOHN 4y ago

Reading this article I'm once again struck by how, as with so many problems in the U.S. is so rare to look outside their borders to learn from what is working in other countries. Americans seem to have an almost pathological blindness to seeking out the experience of other countries.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
It's not obvious that cross-country comparisons are useful for the kinds of problems the article describes. They seem cultural, and you can't really just decide that the US is going to have the cultural norms of some other country even if you think you'd get good results.
- noirbot 4y ago
  There's also other factors - almost all other countries are a lot more culturally, racially, and religiously homogeneous than the US. Obviously a lot of that is upstream from the resultant culture, but it still makes comparison hard. It's easy to point to things the US is "doing wrong" that it's famous for, but it's important to remember that very few cultural dividing lines are actually a majority in the US, and almost everyone is some melange of different traditions and identities compared to most other countries.
  - Tainnor 4y ago
    > almost all other countries are a lot more culturally, racially, and religiously homogeneous than the US. That's not even true in the developed world, much less so in the rest (where ethnic or religious conflicts often lead to disastrous consequences). It's just that Americans sometimes have a narrow lens when it comes to diversity: "they're all white (or all black), so they must all think the same, speak the same language, have the same religion, etc." Linguistic diversity, for example, is much greater even in individual European countries than in the US.
    - noirbot 4y ago
      Do you have a source for that? Most of the demographic charts I've seen for the "developed world" are a fair bit more homogeneous, though a lot of that seems to also be that European census numbers are much less in depth about this sort of thing. I'm certainly not making the absurd claim you're proposing that "they're all white so they're the same thing". What I am claiming is that, partially due to the relative population sizes, the "white" population of somewhere like France is more homogeneous in cultural tradition. Obviously there's some amount of cross-migration between EU countries, but most of the US's "white" population is, obviously, non-native within the last 3-6 generations, and from all over Europe mostly. Obviously not all of China or India is exactly the same culturally, but those are both countries who have a core cultural history for their residents that goes back far before the US was even a thing, and that tends to provided a basis for the more specific cultures that are different, providing some commonalities. Same with religion - while the US is predominantly Christian, it's essentially the breeding ground for almost every major denomination of Protestant church/new faith movement, compared to countries that have a strong Catholic-specific background. Just structurally, the teachings and culture of US Protestant/Evangelical churches are more different from each other than what I've seen within more top-down Catholic or Muslim communities I've interacted with. You're certainly right about countries with a history of ethnic conflict, "developed" or otherwise, but many of those are majority religions/cultures fighting minority ones in an attempt to create a homogeneous state, and separately, I'm assuming OP didn't imply that the US should be looking to Yemen or Ethopia for examples on how to solve problems of cultural issues at this point. I'm not even sure about the linguistic part. Per US Census in 2017, only 78% of US households speak English at home, compared to 90% of residents in Germany speaking German at home according to a 2019 Pew Survey, or 92% of people in England and Wales speaking English per a 2011 Census there.
      - Tainnor 4y ago
        It's true that the US has a lot of immigrants speaking various languages, but they're all bound together by their need to speak English to function in US society (at least in most parts, I guess). And while there is a certain religious diversity, it has not so far led to violent conflict. Countries like Switzerland, Belgium etc. are linguistically divided with no one language common to all. Even countries with one dominant language (e.g. Germany) have regional minority languages (e.g. Danish). Russian-speaking people live in Ukraine (without being "Russian" in any political sense) or in Belarus. Swedes live in Finland. Yugoslavia fell apart because of ethnic tensions between groups of people that are linguistically close, but religiously diverse (Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim), and there are still Serb minorities in Croatia and vice versa. In general, the history of Europe is littered with people that are not that culturally different going at war with each other, or treating each other like shit, without the need for there being a difference in skin colour (just consider the 30 years war, for example). It's calmed down in the last century, but it still reverberates throughout society. edit: Forgot to mention Spain with its decades-long tension between the central government and Basque or Catalan separatists. edit2: You mentioned India. India has 23 official languages.
norwalkbear 4y ago
The average American doesn't have much representation in systemic decisions these days.
- ReactiveJelly 4y ago
  I too hate the electoral college system
  - FrontierPsych 4y ago
mikhmha 4y ago
Is this a natural thing that occurs in other countries? I honestly don't think so. Cross country idea exchange like this usually happens due to geography - the citizens themselves see what works in other countries by visiting them on trips & vacations and they bring these ideas back. Otherwise you can't force stuff like this, the people will reject it as foreign and alien. Simply watching videos or being told how great things are in other countries isn't enough, you have to go there and actually experience it. I would argue the current anti-car movement in the U.S is a result of more americans going abroad for vacation to Europe and Asia and seeing what works there and bringing those ideas back. But how easy is it for Americans to go abroad? Most can't.

by GZJOHN 4y ago

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago

It's not obvious that cross-country comparisons are useful for the kinds of problems the article describes. They seem cultural, and you can't really just decide that the US is going to have the cultural norms of some other country even if you think you'd get good results.

noirbot 4y ago
There's also other factors - almost all other countries are a lot more culturally, racially, and religiously homogeneous than the US. Obviously a lot of that is upstream from the resultant culture, but it still makes comparison hard. It's easy to point to things the US is "doing wrong" that it's famous for, but it's important to remember that very few cultural dividing lines are actually a majority in the US, and almost everyone is some melange of different traditions and identities compared to most other countries.
- Tainnor 4y ago
  > almost all other countries are a lot more culturally, racially, and religiously homogeneous than the US. That's not even true in the developed world, much less so in the rest (where ethnic or religious conflicts often lead to disastrous consequences). It's just that Americans sometimes have a narrow lens when it comes to diversity: "they're all white (or all black), so they must all think the same, speak the same language, have the same religion, etc." Linguistic diversity, for example, is much greater even in individual European countries than in the US.
  - noirbot 4y ago
    Do you have a source for that? Most of the demographic charts I've seen for the "developed world" are a fair bit more homogeneous, though a lot of that seems to also be that European census numbers are much less in depth about this sort of thing. I'm certainly not making the absurd claim you're proposing that "they're all white so they're the same thing". What I am claiming is that, partially due to the relative population sizes, the "white" population of somewhere like France is more homogeneous in cultural tradition. Obviously there's some amount of cross-migration between EU countries, but most of the US's "white" population is, obviously, non-native within the last 3-6 generations, and from all over Europe mostly. Obviously not all of China or India is exactly the same culturally, but those are both countries who have a core cultural history for their residents that goes back far before the US was even a thing, and that tends to provided a basis for the more specific cultures that are different, providing some commonalities. Same with religion - while the US is predominantly Christian, it's essentially the breeding ground for almost every major denomination of Protestant church/new faith movement, compared to countries that have a strong Catholic-specific background. Just structurally, the teachings and culture of US Protestant/Evangelical churches are more different from each other than what I've seen within more top-down Catholic or Muslim communities I've interacted with. You're certainly right about countries with a history of ethnic conflict, "developed" or otherwise, but many of those are majority religions/cultures fighting minority ones in an attempt to create a homogeneous state, and separately, I'm assuming OP didn't imply that the US should be looking to Yemen or Ethopia for examples on how to solve problems of cultural issues at this point. I'm not even sure about the linguistic part. Per US Census in 2017, only 78% of US households speak English at home, compared to 90% of residents in Germany speaking German at home according to a 2019 Pew Survey, or 92% of people in England and Wales speaking English per a 2011 Census there.
    - Tainnor 4y ago
      It's true that the US has a lot of immigrants speaking various languages, but they're all bound together by their need to speak English to function in US society (at least in most parts, I guess). And while there is a certain religious diversity, it has not so far led to violent conflict. Countries like Switzerland, Belgium etc. are linguistically divided with no one language common to all. Even countries with one dominant language (e.g. Germany) have regional minority languages (e.g. Danish). Russian-speaking people live in Ukraine (without being "Russian" in any political sense) or in Belarus. Swedes live in Finland. Yugoslavia fell apart because of ethnic tensions between groups of people that are linguistically close, but religiously diverse (Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim), and there are still Serb minorities in Croatia and vice versa. In general, the history of Europe is littered with people that are not that culturally different going at war with each other, or treating each other like shit, without the need for there being a difference in skin colour (just consider the 30 years war, for example). It's calmed down in the last century, but it still reverberates throughout society. edit: Forgot to mention Spain with its decades-long tension between the central government and Basque or Catalan separatists. edit2: You mentioned India. India has 23 official languages.

norwalkbear 4y ago

The average American doesn't have much representation in systemic decisions these days.

ReactiveJelly 4y ago
I too hate the electoral college system
- FrontierPsych 4y ago

mikhmha 4y ago

Is this a natural thing that occurs in other countries? I honestly don't think so. Cross country idea exchange like this usually happens due to geography - the citizens themselves see what works in other countries by visiting them on trips & vacations and they bring these ideas back. Otherwise you can't force stuff like this, the people will reject it as foreign and alien. Simply watching videos or being told how great things are in other countries isn't enough, you have to go there and actually experience it. I would argue the current anti-car movement in the U.S is a result of more americans going abroad for vacation to Europe and Asia and seeing what works there and bringing those ideas back. But how easy is it for Americans to go abroad? Most can't.