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Except that people undergoing these surgeries do so willingly, face massive barriers to ensure they are thinking clearly and understand the consequences, show m

Except that people undergoing these surgeries do so willingly, face massive barriers to ensure they are thinking clearly and understand the consequences, show minimal regret rates, often have to undergo extensive psychological counseling beforehand, etc... Except for everything it's exactly the same.

Ligma123 4y ago
Except that is not the case where many people who now wish to "detransition" claim neither them or their parents got a good explanation of the consequences of such surgical procedures or the medicine they'd be prescribed, from medical doctors, who guess what, are in it for the money.
- absolutelynobo 4y ago
  “Many people” being substantially in the minority, like 1-5% of an already microscopic population. Non-surgical puberty blockers are completely reversible and do not sterilize. Please don’t spread irrelevant, hateful flamewar bait and FUD in random threads as a way to Cunningham yourself out of ignorance.
  - oilslick 4y ago
    > Non-surgical puberty blockers are completely reversible and do not sterilize. This is also an ideological stance. Please see https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2121238 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2... for an evidence-based review that contests this. Edit: I'm not permitted to reply to the comment below, but I would like to point out that it's a rather shallow dismissal of a well-researched paper. I would recommend actually reading the whole paper, at the very least to challenge one's preconceptions on this issue. Personally, I find such challenge to be an intellectually stimulating experience.
    - absolutelynobo 4y ago
      The blockers themselves are reversible. The treatments that may follow are not necessarily reversible. Do you really expect to simply point at a single-author paper that came out last week to “win” this discussion? Why the hour-old account focused purely on promoting trans hate?
    - EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
      This paper casts doubt on the current evidence for "completely reversible" as well as their efficacy without really providing evidence of the opposite. I would invite you to read further studies showing that puberty blockers are safe, reversible, and extremely important to trans youth's health: - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.01.20241653v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.01.20241653v... - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453015000943?casa_token=cs2uTv6X96cAAAAA%3AfBmY27NAacdJ46piKDy0-4_zo3X8js_FBbwtEMlb3lsUxsW2nBjuClD799vpbZm1oq20YvGfNIU https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03064... - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00528/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2017.0052... For example. There's definitely still studies to be done, but there is good evidence that puberty blockers are safe and reversible that this author seems to have missed
- flappyeagle 4y ago
  What percentage is “many”? What’s the absolute number?
- EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
  It is hard to find good numbers on detrans minors, simply because there are so few minors who transition in the first place. But here's one study showing that the regret rate for gender affirming surgery in general is ~1% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ Detransitioners get so much media attention simply because it's good transphobia fodder. All there is to substantiate these claims is anecdotal stories from a handful of individuals. These cases should be investigated of course, everyone has a right to make fully informed decisions about their body and it's problematic if that wasn't possible for some reason. However, it is simply untrue that there's a systemic problem with this at the moment. Again anecdotally, among the (few) detrans people I know, all of them agree they made their decisions fully informed, and take ownership of their decisions rather than blaming doctors.
  - absolutelynobo 4y ago
    But it’s so easy to portray doctors as money-hungry child predators! After all, doesn’t Beautiful Perfect American Capitalism encourage individuals to participate in the market, if not live their lives, as ruthless profit-seekers? Aren’t politically and socially conservative, evangelical-proximal, moderately wealthy Tucker-Carlson-consuming Americans constantly re-trained into that frame of mind? Is it so surprising that people see what they want to see, or expect to see, or have been taught to see, in everything around them?
_v7gu 4y ago
>willingly What are you talking about? Children can't give consent. Also don't talk like the only way for children to access this process is through legitimate methods while there are online HRT sellers marketing primarily to children.
- EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
  Are you trying to say that people under 18 should never receive any surgery because they can't consent? This comment chain is about gender affirming surgeries and _doctors_, not DIY HRT so I won't respond to that
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    These people always want to portray kids seeking treatment as just kids looking to do something rebellious instead of, you know, a tiny portion of kids being miserable because they have to lead a basically fake life while half the country tells them they are stupid and wrong and pedophiles
Varyag 4y ago
- EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
  From number 3: > increased time since last gender-affirming surgery was associated with reduced mental health treatment (adjusted odds ratio=0.92, 95% CI=0.87, 0.98). > In this first total population study of transgender individuals with a gender incongruence diagnosis, the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and reduced likelihood of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them. Okay seems to agree that gender affirming surgery is a good thing, thanks for agreeing. [edited because I mistook which of your sources is which] Number 4 is behind a paywall so I can't really comment. But to be honest I doubt that their methodology is valid, and the summary includes no statistics so it's likely the conclusion is overblown With regards to money: this is true of every major health issue in our society, as long as capitalism is at all involved in our health care system there will always be this incentive and we should aim to minimize it. Can you provide some evidence that there is more corruption in gender health care than in other health care? And with regard to Littman, you can't honestly expect me to take the founder of the "rapid onset gender dysphoria" nonsense seriously? She and her "research" methods have been so thoroughly discredited I don't think that even warrants a response. If there's a reputable figure who has similar concerns, this would maybe cast some doubt on more common detrans statistics
- EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
  Also this is a source from 2021 estimating the regret rate for gender affirming surgery is ~1% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ From 2021 (more recent than 2018 as your #4 source) and not paywalled

Ligma123 4y ago

Except that is not the case where many people who now wish to "detransition" claim neither them or their parents got a good explanation of the consequences of such surgical procedures or the medicine they'd be prescribed, from medical doctors, who guess what, are in it for the money.

absolutelynobo 4y ago
“Many people” being substantially in the minority, like 1-5% of an already microscopic population. Non-surgical puberty blockers are completely reversible and do not sterilize. Please don’t spread irrelevant, hateful flamewar bait and FUD in random threads as a way to Cunningham yourself out of ignorance.
- oilslick 4y ago
  > Non-surgical puberty blockers are completely reversible and do not sterilize. This is also an ideological stance. Please see https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2121238 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2... for an evidence-based review that contests this. Edit: I'm not permitted to reply to the comment below, but I would like to point out that it's a rather shallow dismissal of a well-researched paper. I would recommend actually reading the whole paper, at the very least to challenge one's preconceptions on this issue. Personally, I find such challenge to be an intellectually stimulating experience.
  - absolutelynobo 4y ago
    The blockers themselves are reversible. The treatments that may follow are not necessarily reversible. Do you really expect to simply point at a single-author paper that came out last week to “win” this discussion? Why the hour-old account focused purely on promoting trans hate?
  - EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
    This paper casts doubt on the current evidence for "completely reversible" as well as their efficacy without really providing evidence of the opposite. I would invite you to read further studies showing that puberty blockers are safe, reversible, and extremely important to trans youth's health: - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.01.20241653v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.01.20241653v... - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453015000943?casa_token=cs2uTv6X96cAAAAA%3AfBmY27NAacdJ46piKDy0-4_zo3X8js_FBbwtEMlb3lsUxsW2nBjuClD799vpbZm1oq20YvGfNIU https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03064... - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00528/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2017.0052... For example. There's definitely still studies to be done, but there is good evidence that puberty blockers are safe and reversible that this author seems to have missed
flappyeagle 4y ago
What percentage is “many”? What’s the absolute number?
EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
It is hard to find good numbers on detrans minors, simply because there are so few minors who transition in the first place. But here's one study showing that the regret rate for gender affirming surgery in general is ~1% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ Detransitioners get so much media attention simply because it's good transphobia fodder. All there is to substantiate these claims is anecdotal stories from a handful of individuals. These cases should be investigated of course, everyone has a right to make fully informed decisions about their body and it's problematic if that wasn't possible for some reason. However, it is simply untrue that there's a systemic problem with this at the moment. Again anecdotally, among the (few) detrans people I know, all of them agree they made their decisions fully informed, and take ownership of their decisions rather than blaming doctors.
- absolutelynobo 4y ago
  But it’s so easy to portray doctors as money-hungry child predators! After all, doesn’t Beautiful Perfect American Capitalism encourage individuals to participate in the market, if not live their lives, as ruthless profit-seekers? Aren’t politically and socially conservative, evangelical-proximal, moderately wealthy Tucker-Carlson-consuming Americans constantly re-trained into that frame of mind? Is it so surprising that people see what they want to see, or expect to see, or have been taught to see, in everything around them?

_v7gu 4y ago

>willingly What are you talking about? Children can't give consent. Also don't talk like the only way for children to access this process is through legitimate methods while there are online HRT sellers marketing primarily to children.

EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
Are you trying to say that people under 18 should never receive any surgery because they can't consent? This comment chain is about gender affirming surgeries and _doctors_, not DIY HRT so I won't respond to that
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  These people always want to portray kids seeking treatment as just kids looking to do something rebellious instead of, you know, a tiny portion of kids being miserable because they have to lead a basically fake life while half the country tells them they are stupid and wrong and pedophiles

Varyag 4y ago

EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
From number 3: > increased time since last gender-affirming surgery was associated with reduced mental health treatment (adjusted odds ratio=0.92, 95% CI=0.87, 0.98). > In this first total population study of transgender individuals with a gender incongruence diagnosis, the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and reduced likelihood of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them. Okay seems to agree that gender affirming surgery is a good thing, thanks for agreeing. [edited because I mistook which of your sources is which] Number 4 is behind a paywall so I can't really comment. But to be honest I doubt that their methodology is valid, and the summary includes no statistics so it's likely the conclusion is overblown With regards to money: this is true of every major health issue in our society, as long as capitalism is at all involved in our health care system there will always be this incentive and we should aim to minimize it. Can you provide some evidence that there is more corruption in gender health care than in other health care? And with regard to Littman, you can't honestly expect me to take the founder of the "rapid onset gender dysphoria" nonsense seriously? She and her "research" methods have been so thoroughly discredited I don't think that even warrants a response. If there's a reputable figure who has similar concerns, this would maybe cast some doubt on more common detrans statistics
EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
Also this is a source from 2021 estimating the regret rate for gender affirming surgery is ~1% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ From 2021 (more recent than 2018 as your #4 source) and not paywalled