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> But still, having dealt with library version issues sometimes, I think "concurrent library versioning" and "sophisticated package management" sound awfully ni

> But still, having dealt with library version issues sometimes, I think "concurrent library versioning" and "sophisticated package management" sound awfully nightmarishly black-magic to me. I guess I would be more on the "let's understand the most of what happens and not change what don't need to" kind. Concurrent versioning lets you do the "not change what don't need to" part really, really, well. Versions of packages that have been proven to work well with one another can continue to do so because if you need a newer version of some library then both the old and the new version can live harmoniously in the same codebase. You don't need to be paranoid about upgrading modules anymore because node and npm are already paranoid on your behalf.

moe 15y ago
because node and npm are already paranoid on your behalf. Yes, until npm blows up in obscure ways. Which it likes to do frequently.
- IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
  What do you mean by "blow up in obscure ways"? It generally dumps a ton of colorful errors to your terminal. If you find them obscure, please be comforted by the fact that I certainly do not find them obscure, and would love to fix whatever problem they indicate. It's actually my job. Also, npm is a software program, and not intelligent. It doesn't "like" things. To the extent that it has preferences, it loves semantic versions, accurate metadata, and especially you.
  - moe 15y ago
    Not sure if your question is serious? Here's the obscure blowups that were filed in November alone; https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1793 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1793 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1790 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1790 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1809 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1809 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1785 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1785 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1801 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1801 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1770 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1770 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1727 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1727 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1654 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1654
    - IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
      Moe, So, when you say "obscure blowup", do you mean, "someone posted any issue whatsoever"? Several of those are feature requests, or node-core bugs, or things that have been fixed. I find your blowup very obscure. As for npm failing for you, gist or it didn't happen.
      - moe 15y ago
        So, when you say "obscure blowup", do you mean, "someone posted any issue whatsoever"? No, I mean "random malfunction without clear indication of what happened and how to fix it". Several of those are feature requests, or node-core bugs Might be a mindset thing. How many of the 8 bugs qualify as feature requests/node bugs for you? gist or it didn't happen. The gist is that npm needs to become more defensive, clearly state its own dependencies, and not barf random stack traces in the face of problems. You should also have a unix-guy fix the installer. Demanding 'sudo' is not only an embarrassing but also a potentially dangerous mistake.
  - donspaulding 15y ago
    Maybe npm loves moe, but it hates me. I had to downgrade my version of node to 0.4.12 to even get NPM to install on my Mac. The error I was seeing was identical to one that had been seen (and reported in the Github issues list) by several other people 6 weeks earlier. Just found it. I was being bitten by https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1087 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1087 The issue was seemingly marked as "Closed" on June 27th, a full 2 days before a fix was released for testing. It subsequently broke again and stayed broke for, well, I don't know, because I still haven't upgraded my node for fear that NPM would break again. I'm confident that it's me and not you, but I think I'll stick to pip/virtualenv as my package managers of choice, thanks.

moe 15y ago

because node and npm are already paranoid on your behalf. Yes, until npm blows up in obscure ways. Which it likes to do frequently.

IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
What do you mean by "blow up in obscure ways"? It generally dumps a ton of colorful errors to your terminal. If you find them obscure, please be comforted by the fact that I certainly do not find them obscure, and would love to fix whatever problem they indicate. It's actually my job. Also, npm is a software program, and not intelligent. It doesn't "like" things. To the extent that it has preferences, it loves semantic versions, accurate metadata, and especially you.
- moe 15y ago
  Not sure if your question is serious? Here's the obscure blowups that were filed in November alone; https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1793 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1793 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1790 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1790 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1809 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1809 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1785 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1785 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1801 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1801 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1770 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1770 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1727 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1727 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1654 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1654
  - IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
    Moe, So, when you say "obscure blowup", do you mean, "someone posted any issue whatsoever"? Several of those are feature requests, or node-core bugs, or things that have been fixed. I find your blowup very obscure. As for npm failing for you, gist or it didn't happen.
    - moe 15y ago
      So, when you say "obscure blowup", do you mean, "someone posted any issue whatsoever"? No, I mean "random malfunction without clear indication of what happened and how to fix it". Several of those are feature requests, or node-core bugs Might be a mindset thing. How many of the 8 bugs qualify as feature requests/node bugs for you? gist or it didn't happen. The gist is that npm needs to become more defensive, clearly state its own dependencies, and not barf random stack traces in the face of problems. You should also have a unix-guy fix the installer. Demanding 'sudo' is not only an embarrassing but also a potentially dangerous mistake.
- donspaulding 15y ago
  Maybe npm loves moe, but it hates me. I had to downgrade my version of node to 0.4.12 to even get NPM to install on my Mac. The error I was seeing was identical to one that had been seen (and reported in the Github issues list) by several other people 6 weeks earlier. Just found it. I was being bitten by https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1087 https://github.com/isaacs/npm/issues/1087 The issue was seemingly marked as "Closed" on June 27th, a full 2 days before a fix was released for testing. It subsequently broke again and stayed broke for, well, I don't know, because I still haven't upgraded my node for fear that NPM would break again. I'm confident that it's me and not you, but I think I'll stick to pip/virtualenv as my package managers of choice, thanks.