7 ms·

While RT is a single player gimmick I mostly turn off, it won't take many more increases like this to make it a very real feature. What will we see when develo

While RT is a single player gimmick I mostly turn off, it won't take many more increases like this to make it a very real feature. What will we see when developers start targeting these cards, or their successors?

izacus 4y ago
What does "single player gimmick" in your sentences here mean?
- helf 4y ago
  The same thing people who say this always mean: “In /my opinion/, this doesn’t add enough to the game experience to justify the performance penalty. Also, my hardware isn’t strong enough to use it. Therefor it’s a gimmick! Herpa derpa!” That may actually be giving too much credit. It’s probably more like “I don’t like it so it’s a gimmick that no one else should enjoy”
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    Divining people's real motivations is a skill wasted on HN news comments. If you're as good at it as you think you are, you should be brokering multi-billion dollar deals.
    - helf 4y ago
      Oooh quite the burn. Props.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  I interpret it to mean that the graphical enhancements that RT can give you are only really appreciable if you're playing a single-player game that allows you to stop and check out how beautiful it is, while in a competitive multiplayer game, you're moving around too fast to really appreciate (or even notice) the difference RT gives you over fake reflections.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    By that logic, shooters could still have Quake graphics, and given how people still play it, I guess that's right.
    - squeaky-clean 4y ago
      Most Pro-level CS:GO players still play at 1024x768 or 1280x960 and graphics set to the lowest setting. (Best sources I could quickly find on my phone. Annoying ads warning) https://www.prosettings.com/zywoo-csgo/ https://www.prosettings.com/zywoo-csgo/ https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/csgo-best-resolution-setting https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/csgo-best-resolution-s...
      - chupasaurus 4y ago
        The reason behind the 4:3 low resolution is outside of scope for ray tracing or performance overall: most of pro players found out that widened picture and thus player models are easier to target precisely in motion (AFAIK the phenomenon hasn't being studied properly) and you're limited by vertical resolution of the screen thus 960 is the upper bound for a common 16:9 1080p panel. As for lowest settings, the CS:GO don't have options to put the game into flat panel mess that is professional Q3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3ui0hz6sm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3ui0hz6sm0
    - pdpi 4y ago
      We're past Quake-level graphics, but competitive eSports games, by and large, have deliberately simple graphics optimised for readability over flare. If you look at LoL, Fortnite, Valorant, Overwatch, they're all kind of the same — fairly flat light, bright colourful characters against a backdrop of pastels and otherwise muted background colours. Texture detailing is discrete and everything almost looks like block colours if you squint. Rainbow 6 Siege, CSGO, PUBG are the same, minus the colourful characters. Even if those games didn't optimise their engines for performance over visual fidelity, their visual design would make them fairly light weight anyhow.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  > What does "single player gimmick" in your sentences here mean? When I've seen this written it's often explained as to do with the fact that single-player is a much more curated experience, where the developers can stage-manage where you go and even where you look, and discard resources they know you won't see again. That's why single-player often looks way better than multiplayer, where a) the experience isn't that curated and b) fps matters much more.
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
If it's actually another 2x performance improvement, we're really only another generation away at most. On my 3080 RT caused a performance drop but I was able to decide the trade-off for myself, often it was still playable, I just needed to decide whether I wanted high refresh rates or not. Another doubling or two and it'll barely be a thought at all. The caveat with this still is it requires DLSS for best effect, which is barely a trade off in my experience.
hoffs 4y ago
Not even close to a gimmick...
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  You're right, it really isn't. Gamers don't see it that way though because often, faked reflections are "good enough". In some cases though, the faked reflections are noticeable and immersion breaking. I notice it in MS Flight Simulator. I'm flying over water and approaching a large city, and I can see the reflection of buildings in the water. But when I push the nose down, as the image of the buildings goes off the top of my screen, the reflections go away too. In reality, this wouldn't happen. But in the sim, it does because the reflections are generated by just inverting the rendered image of the buildings. There's a map in Apex Legends where a section has a shiny floor. It fakes a reflection by rendering an environment-mapped texture. It does a decent job at making the floor look like it's reflective, but as you move around and compare what's being rendered to the actual geometry, you notice how it falls apart. But in a competitive FPS, you're not looking at the environment long and hard enough to notice. Duke Nukem 3D had proper reflections, but it did it by actually mirroring all the geometry, a technique that only really works well if the geometry is simple. RT makes reflections Just Work and work properly.

izacus 4y ago

What does "single player gimmick" in your sentences here mean?

helf 4y ago
The same thing people who say this always mean: “In /my opinion/, this doesn’t add enough to the game experience to justify the performance penalty. Also, my hardware isn’t strong enough to use it. Therefor it’s a gimmick! Herpa derpa!” That may actually be giving too much credit. It’s probably more like “I don’t like it so it’s a gimmick that no one else should enjoy”
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  Divining people's real motivations is a skill wasted on HN news comments. If you're as good at it as you think you are, you should be brokering multi-billion dollar deals.
  - helf 4y ago
    Oooh quite the burn. Props.
Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
I interpret it to mean that the graphical enhancements that RT can give you are only really appreciable if you're playing a single-player game that allows you to stop and check out how beautiful it is, while in a competitive multiplayer game, you're moving around too fast to really appreciate (or even notice) the difference RT gives you over fake reflections.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  By that logic, shooters could still have Quake graphics, and given how people still play it, I guess that's right.
  - squeaky-clean 4y ago
    Most Pro-level CS:GO players still play at 1024x768 or 1280x960 and graphics set to the lowest setting. (Best sources I could quickly find on my phone. Annoying ads warning) https://www.prosettings.com/zywoo-csgo/ https://www.prosettings.com/zywoo-csgo/ https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/csgo-best-resolution-setting https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/csgo-best-resolution-s...
    - chupasaurus 4y ago
      The reason behind the 4:3 low resolution is outside of scope for ray tracing or performance overall: most of pro players found out that widened picture and thus player models are easier to target precisely in motion (AFAIK the phenomenon hasn't being studied properly) and you're limited by vertical resolution of the screen thus 960 is the upper bound for a common 16:9 1080p panel. As for lowest settings, the CS:GO don't have options to put the game into flat panel mess that is professional Q3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3ui0hz6sm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3ui0hz6sm0
  - pdpi 4y ago
    We're past Quake-level graphics, but competitive eSports games, by and large, have deliberately simple graphics optimised for readability over flare. If you look at LoL, Fortnite, Valorant, Overwatch, they're all kind of the same — fairly flat light, bright colourful characters against a backdrop of pastels and otherwise muted background colours. Texture detailing is discrete and everything almost looks like block colours if you squint. Rainbow 6 Siege, CSGO, PUBG are the same, minus the colourful characters. Even if those games didn't optimise their engines for performance over visual fidelity, their visual design would make them fairly light weight anyhow.
robertlagrant 4y ago
> What does "single player gimmick" in your sentences here mean? When I've seen this written it's often explained as to do with the fact that single-player is a much more curated experience, where the developers can stage-manage where you go and even where you look, and discard resources they know you won't see again. That's why single-player often looks way better than multiplayer, where a) the experience isn't that curated and b) fps matters much more.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago

If it's actually another 2x performance improvement, we're really only another generation away at most. On my 3080 RT caused a performance drop but I was able to decide the trade-off for myself, often it was still playable, I just needed to decide whether I wanted high refresh rates or not. Another doubling or two and it'll barely be a thought at all. The caveat with this still is it requires DLSS for best effect, which is barely a trade off in my experience.

hoffs 4y ago

Not even close to a gimmick...

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
You're right, it really isn't. Gamers don't see it that way though because often, faked reflections are "good enough". In some cases though, the faked reflections are noticeable and immersion breaking. I notice it in MS Flight Simulator. I'm flying over water and approaching a large city, and I can see the reflection of buildings in the water. But when I push the nose down, as the image of the buildings goes off the top of my screen, the reflections go away too. In reality, this wouldn't happen. But in the sim, it does because the reflections are generated by just inverting the rendered image of the buildings. There's a map in Apex Legends where a section has a shiny floor. It fakes a reflection by rendering an environment-mapped texture. It does a decent job at making the floor look like it's reflective, but as you move around and compare what's being rendered to the actual geometry, you notice how it falls apart. But in a competitive FPS, you're not looking at the environment long and hard enough to notice. Duke Nukem 3D had proper reflections, but it did it by actually mirroring all the geometry, a technique that only really works well if the geometry is simple. RT makes reflections Just Work and work properly.