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Unless the entire narrative you laid out is the result of a propaganda campaign. I don't think it is in this case, but the presence of this quantity of bots pus

Unless the entire narrative you laid out is the result of a propaganda campaign. I don't think it is in this case, but the presence of this quantity of bots pushing a certain perspective does make me question my assumptions and worry how I'm being influenced in cases that are not nearly as black and white as Ukraine vs Russia.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago
If you see Ukraine vs Russia as black and white, it means you are already manipulated. The conflict didn't start on 24th of February this year. Even if the press pretends it's all clear, there's a long history of events full of nuances going back hundreds of years that can paint the current events in one or other colour.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  > hundreds of years Yes hundreds of years of Ukraine being oppressed by Russia (also western powers at times)... Meanwhile when did Ukraine EVER attack Russia?
- hendersoon 4y ago
  Can you go into any detail on historical events which a reasonable person might feel justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
  - p1peridine 4y ago
    Understanding Russian Strategic Behavior - Imperial Strategic Culture and Putin’s Operational Code (2022) by Professor Graeme P. Herd. https://www.routledge.com/Understanding-Russian-Strategic-Behavior-Imperial-Strategic-Culture-and/Herd/p/book/9780367205225 https://www.routledge.com/Understanding-Russian-Strategic-Be... This book is useful for understanding (not justifying).
- rustybelt 4y ago
  Trust me, I see your point. I was trying to be diplomatic considering the dominant perspective.
- dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
  Yes, the story is long. Yes, there are many Russians in Ukraine, especially in the East. Yes, there were some alt-right people in Ukraine, too. No, none of these justifies starting a full-scale war, killing thousands of people.
  - canadiantim 4y ago
    I think the point he was making is it's tough to pinpoint who start the war, considering ukraine has been a pretty intense proxy battlefield for almost a decade and beyond
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      One country moved their soldiers across the border, the other didn't... Tell me, when did Ukraine EVER attack Russia?
    - notahacker 4y ago
      Still fairly easy tbh. Ukraine didn't invade Russia in 2014 either...
    - dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
      You must be kidding, right? Ukraine didn't invade Russia, neither in 2014 nor in 2022.
      - Fatnino 4y ago
        Clearly he thinks that when the Ukrainian people threw out the russian puppet head of state that was an aggressive attack against Russia so everything done since then is in self defence.
        tut-urut-utut 4y ago
        This fits the bias hypotheses. Facts gets twisted in the way that confirms your bias that already exists. If the population elects a head of state you don't like, it's a pro-Russian puppet. If the person is pro-USA, it's an expressed democratic will. If government gets changed on the streets, it's not a coup, it's a pinnacle of democracy, as long as you don't like the former head of state. If people you don't like start a rebellion, they are terrorists who need to be crushed. Or a democratic liberation army, if you like them. If the regular army of a state is sent to crush a rebellion, it's either a genocide and the country needs to be bombed to oblivion, or a legal action where any atrocity is allowed because you are fighting an evil terrorist organization. Seen thousands of times on any of the mainstream TV in any "western" country. (in "eastern" countries too). You just have to put a "correct" frame based on your pre-existing knowledge who's your friend and who's your enemy, and the whole narrative fits perfectly.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

If you see Ukraine vs Russia as black and white, it means you are already manipulated. The conflict didn't start on 24th of February this year. Even if the press pretends it's all clear, there's a long history of events full of nuances going back hundreds of years that can paint the current events in one or other colour.

Mikeb85 4y ago
> hundreds of years Yes hundreds of years of Ukraine being oppressed by Russia (also western powers at times)... Meanwhile when did Ukraine EVER attack Russia?
hendersoon 4y ago
Can you go into any detail on historical events which a reasonable person might feel justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
- p1peridine 4y ago
  Understanding Russian Strategic Behavior - Imperial Strategic Culture and Putin’s Operational Code (2022) by Professor Graeme P. Herd. https://www.routledge.com/Understanding-Russian-Strategic-Behavior-Imperial-Strategic-Culture-and/Herd/p/book/9780367205225 https://www.routledge.com/Understanding-Russian-Strategic-Be... This book is useful for understanding (not justifying).
rustybelt 4y ago
Trust me, I see your point. I was trying to be diplomatic considering the dominant perspective.
dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
Yes, the story is long. Yes, there are many Russians in Ukraine, especially in the East. Yes, there were some alt-right people in Ukraine, too. No, none of these justifies starting a full-scale war, killing thousands of people.
- canadiantim 4y ago
  I think the point he was making is it's tough to pinpoint who start the war, considering ukraine has been a pretty intense proxy battlefield for almost a decade and beyond
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    One country moved their soldiers across the border, the other didn't... Tell me, when did Ukraine EVER attack Russia?
  - notahacker 4y ago
    Still fairly easy tbh. Ukraine didn't invade Russia in 2014 either...
  - dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
    You must be kidding, right? Ukraine didn't invade Russia, neither in 2014 nor in 2022.
    - Fatnino 4y ago
      Clearly he thinks that when the Ukrainian people threw out the russian puppet head of state that was an aggressive attack against Russia so everything done since then is in self defence.
      - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
        This fits the bias hypotheses. Facts gets twisted in the way that confirms your bias that already exists. If the population elects a head of state you don't like, it's a pro-Russian puppet. If the person is pro-USA, it's an expressed democratic will. If government gets changed on the streets, it's not a coup, it's a pinnacle of democracy, as long as you don't like the former head of state. If people you don't like start a rebellion, they are terrorists who need to be crushed. Or a democratic liberation army, if you like them. If the regular army of a state is sent to crush a rebellion, it's either a genocide and the country needs to be bombed to oblivion, or a legal action where any atrocity is allowed because you are fighting an evil terrorist organization. Seen thousands of times on any of the mainstream TV in any "western" country. (in "eastern" countries too). You just have to put a "correct" frame based on your pre-existing knowledge who's your friend and who's your enemy, and the whole narrative fits perfectly.