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> The truth is a significant portion of managers, in my experience, are not particularly well suited to the task or are incompetent on some level. Competent ma

> The truth is a significant portion of managers, in my experience, are not particularly well suited to the task or are incompetent on some level. Competent managers are few and far between, Steve Jobs said/did a lot of stupid crap but one cogent point he made was that the best managers are the ones who never wanted to be a manager, they just went and did it because they were sick of dealing with incompetent managers.

Loughla 4y ago
I count myself as a good manager, and I believe my staff would agree, from what I can tell. I know I'm not perfect. I'm slow to act, I'm way too able to see both sides of every argument, and I want to make sure all of my ducks are in a row before I make noise across the institution based on what my team needs. But, my secrets: 1. I didn't want to be the boss, I just absolutely HATE being told what to do. The only way to not be told what to do, then, is be in charge. 2. Be open and honest in everything. If you don't know what they're saying to you, say that out loud. If you can't get any traction for whatever the thing they need at the institution, tell them and troubleshoot what comes next. If you really, genuinely understand the individual's complaints, but know that it won't go anywhere, be up front about that, and the reasons for it if you are able. 3. Let the experts be experts, support them, believe them, but also ask questions and do your research so you can (a) call out their bullshit if necessary and (b) not sound and act like a complete moron. In other words, trust, but verify. 4. Do not ignore inter-personal conflict. It will only fester, it will never get better. Your job is to manage the people, including their relationships. Nobody says you have to be friends, but you better f**ing believe you have to work together. 5. Buy drinks if the office does an after-hours, and then leave so they can shit talk you if they want. Even if you're great, they'll shit talk something about you; it's human nature. Again, I'm not perfect, but these things are 99% of successful managing. I see my job as insulating my staff from the bullshit that flows down from on-high, that way they can actually do the important work. I loved WFH. My staff were happy, they were productive, and they were productive in FAR less time. But, alas, the executive team here is stuck in a 1950's factory mindset of 'presence is productivity'. It's infuriating.
- htrp 4y ago
  > 5. Buy drinks if the office does an after-hours, and then leave so they can shit talk you if they want. Even if you're great, they'll shit talk something about you; it's human nature. My personal favorite. You buy the first round and then you leave.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I don’t know precisely why I think this advise is so amazing but this brought a (wry) smile to my face. I think it’s similar to good parenting for sleepovers. Pop in, let them know that you’re there and glad they’re there and that you want them to have a good time, then give them space / go to sleep. Ideally, they won’t even be aware that you went to sleep, but do think that you’re willing to give them space. This might be my most rambly comment on this site, but genuinely appreciate this comment.
- sunaurus 4y ago
  > 1. I didn't want to be the boss, I just absolutely HATE being told what to do. The only way to not be told what to do, then, is be in charge. I'm surprised you say that this is the #1 secret to your success - in my experience, the worst managers I've ever had were people who became managers just because they wanted to be in charge and "make hard decisions". The best managers have been the ones who leave product decisions to product specialists and engineering decisions to engineers.
  - Loughla 4y ago
    I think maybe I didn't explain that well. I didn't want to be in charge. I didn't want to be the boss. I didn't want to 'make hard decisions'. I love the front-line work. But I also hate, hate, HATE being told what to do. I hated having shitty managers who had no idea what life was like for me, professionally or personally. I hated getting mandates from the company with no context. So, the only way I saw to fix that for myself, and the people I work with, was to be the guy in charge. I hope that clarifies. Because, I'm 100% with you. The worst managers I've ever had have been the people who absolutely, no question, wanted to be nothing but a manager for the title or responsibility and ability to be in charge.
lapcat 4y ago
> Steve Jobs said/did a lot of stupid crap but one cogent point he made was that the best managers are the ones who never wanted to be a manager, they just went and did it because they were sick of dealing with incompetent managers. I wonder if he read Plato's Republic, because that's the same idea behind the philosopher kings.
mhss 4y ago
> the best managers are the ones who never wanted to be a manager There's some truth to it. In the sense that I think best managers are not seeking power or "being a leader" for the sake of it. However, there are also a lot of managers that did not want to be managers and are miserable because they'd rather be doing sw engineering and as a result they're shit at their management jobs. Many do not realize it until years into the role and some cannot let go of the 'status' of being the manager and are trapped in a job they do not like, mistakenly afraid of "stepping back" on their careers.
tablespoon 4y ago
> Competent managers are few and far between, Steve Jobs said/did a lot of stupid crap but one cogent point he made was that the best managers are the ones who never wanted to be a manager, they just went and did it because they were sick of dealing with incompetent managers. It's worth noting that a lot of terrible and mediocre managers also "...never wanted to be a manager, they just went and did it because they were sick of dealing with incompetent managers."
- drewcoo 4y ago
  I think you're missing the point. Reluctant managers don't do it because "wooo, no more managers - I'm free!" Reluctant managers do it so that they can fix some of those things that everyone was complaining about before. They do it because they want people to stop suffering so much and they see ways to make that happen. I don't think that could possibly describe a terrible manager.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > I think you're missing the point. No, I just think it's a quote that (if true) is easy to misinterpret, e.g.: 1. The best managers may have been reluctant managers, but that doesn't mean all reluctant managers are the best or even good. 2. The changes that reluctant manager may want to implement may not actually be good ones, because of concerns outside of their previous lower-level scope. 3. A reluctant manager may not actually have the personality for being a manager, and may become mediocre to terrible because what they have to do to be a manager is a heavier burden on them than it would be on other people.
api 4y ago
That those who desire political influence or power are precisely the ones from whom it should be kept has been known and understood since at least Ancient Greece.

Loughla 4y ago

I count myself as a good manager, and I believe my staff would agree, from what I can tell. I know I'm not perfect. I'm slow to act, I'm way too able to see both sides of every argument, and I want to make sure all of my ducks are in a row before I make noise across the institution based on what my team needs. But, my secrets: 1. I didn't want to be the boss, I just absolutely HATE being told what to do. The only way to not be told what to do, then, is be in charge. 2. Be open and honest in everything. If you don't know what they're saying to you, say that out loud. If you can't get any traction for whatever the thing they need at the institution, tell them and troubleshoot what comes next. If you really, genuinely understand the individual's complaints, but know that it won't go anywhere, be up front about that, and the reasons for it if you are able. 3. Let the experts be experts, support them, believe them, but also ask questions and do your research so you can (a) call out their bullshit if necessary and (b) not sound and act like a complete moron. In other words, trust, but verify. 4. Do not ignore inter-personal conflict. It will only fester, it will never get better. Your job is to manage the people, including their relationships. Nobody says you have to be friends, but you better f**ing believe you have to work together. 5. Buy drinks if the office does an after-hours, and then leave so they can shit talk you if they want. Even if you're great, they'll shit talk something about you; it's human nature. Again, I'm not perfect, but these things are 99% of successful managing. I see my job as insulating my staff from the bullshit that flows down from on-high, that way they can actually do the important work. I loved WFH. My staff were happy, they were productive, and they were productive in FAR less time. But, alas, the executive team here is stuck in a 1950's factory mindset of 'presence is productivity'. It's infuriating.

htrp 4y ago
> 5. Buy drinks if the office does an after-hours, and then leave so they can shit talk you if they want. Even if you're great, they'll shit talk something about you; it's human nature. My personal favorite. You buy the first round and then you leave.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  I don’t know precisely why I think this advise is so amazing but this brought a (wry) smile to my face. I think it’s similar to good parenting for sleepovers. Pop in, let them know that you’re there and glad they’re there and that you want them to have a good time, then give them space / go to sleep. Ideally, they won’t even be aware that you went to sleep, but do think that you’re willing to give them space. This might be my most rambly comment on this site, but genuinely appreciate this comment.
sunaurus 4y ago
> 1. I didn't want to be the boss, I just absolutely HATE being told what to do. The only way to not be told what to do, then, is be in charge. I'm surprised you say that this is the #1 secret to your success - in my experience, the worst managers I've ever had were people who became managers just because they wanted to be in charge and "make hard decisions". The best managers have been the ones who leave product decisions to product specialists and engineering decisions to engineers.
- Loughla 4y ago
  I think maybe I didn't explain that well. I didn't want to be in charge. I didn't want to be the boss. I didn't want to 'make hard decisions'. I love the front-line work. But I also hate, hate, HATE being told what to do. I hated having shitty managers who had no idea what life was like for me, professionally or personally. I hated getting mandates from the company with no context. So, the only way I saw to fix that for myself, and the people I work with, was to be the guy in charge. I hope that clarifies. Because, I'm 100% with you. The worst managers I've ever had have been the people who absolutely, no question, wanted to be nothing but a manager for the title or responsibility and ability to be in charge.

lapcat 4y ago

> Steve Jobs said/did a lot of stupid crap but one cogent point he made was that the best managers are the ones who never wanted to be a manager, they just went and did it because they were sick of dealing with incompetent managers. I wonder if he read Plato's Republic, because that's the same idea behind the philosopher kings.

mhss 4y ago

> the best managers are the ones who never wanted to be a manager There's some truth to it. In the sense that I think best managers are not seeking power or "being a leader" for the sake of it. However, there are also a lot of managers that did not want to be managers and are miserable because they'd rather be doing sw engineering and as a result they're shit at their management jobs. Many do not realize it until years into the role and some cannot let go of the 'status' of being the manager and are trapped in a job they do not like, mistakenly afraid of "stepping back" on their careers.

tablespoon 4y ago

> Competent managers are few and far between, Steve Jobs said/did a lot of stupid crap but one cogent point he made was that the best managers are the ones who never wanted to be a manager, they just went and did it because they were sick of dealing with incompetent managers. It's worth noting that a lot of terrible and mediocre managers also "...never wanted to be a manager, they just went and did it because they were sick of dealing with incompetent managers."

drewcoo 4y ago
I think you're missing the point. Reluctant managers don't do it because "wooo, no more managers - I'm free!" Reluctant managers do it so that they can fix some of those things that everyone was complaining about before. They do it because they want people to stop suffering so much and they see ways to make that happen. I don't think that could possibly describe a terrible manager.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > I think you're missing the point. No, I just think it's a quote that (if true) is easy to misinterpret, e.g.: 1. The best managers may have been reluctant managers, but that doesn't mean all reluctant managers are the best or even good. 2. The changes that reluctant manager may want to implement may not actually be good ones, because of concerns outside of their previous lower-level scope. 3. A reluctant manager may not actually have the personality for being a manager, and may become mediocre to terrible because what they have to do to be a manager is a heavier burden on them than it would be on other people.

api 4y ago

That those who desire political influence or power are precisely the ones from whom it should be kept has been known and understood since at least Ancient Greece.