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The wests "support" amounts to indebting Ukraine for the next 100 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_Democracy_Defense_Lend-Lease_Act_of_2022 https:/

by 451mov 4y ago

The wests "support" amounts to indebting Ukraine for the next 100 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_Democracy_Defense_Lend-Lease_Act_of_2022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_Democracy_Defense_Lend...

criley2 4y ago
Lol I am going to describe your reply as Russian propaganda for a number of reasons: 1) You "" quoted "support" as a way to diminish it, even though the Western support has clearly been absolutely instrumental in every possible way to the Ukrainian resistance. To deny this is either ignorance or malfeasance. Without western "support" Kyiv would have fallen in the first weeks. Instead, Ukrainians are fully routing the Russians who are in mass retreat. Some "support"!! 2) American lend-lease is a way to reduce domestic red tape and expedite transfers of military equipment. It's a formality and the US is not some creditor hounding nations. In fact, some nations never repaid the WW2 debts at all and no one cares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#Repayment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#Repayment Your characterization of it is... bizarre and weird... unless you're pushing agitprop. If the Ukrainian people make some token tiny payment 50 years from now as a commemoration of this beautiful new brotherhood, it will be a special moment. But if it never comes, no one will care. 3) American lend-lease is SEPARATE from the monetary assistance -- the $15 billion dollars the US has given to Ukraine since the war began is not a lend-lease debt. And American lend-lease obviously doesn't cover things like the MASSIVE Polish contributions. To lump all of Western "support" into "lend-lease", when in reality it's not, again is either ignorance or malfeasance.
- 451mov 4y ago
  Lol a race to the bottom as usual with someone who is hooked on western main stream media e.g: "Russians are in mass retreat" - this is comical. People like you see no nuance, I am against the war in the first instance. A more realistic understanding of geopolitics could and should have avoided this war but that day has long since passed. Yes i am diminishing the "support" provided by the west, as op mentioned if the west was so determined to stand with Ukraine then they should be putting soldiers on the ground. People like you couldn't careless, your "support" will just add fuel to the fire of an already burning Ukraine. I'll go further, the wests support is actually tantamount to warmongering (but thats par for the course).
  - criley2 4y ago
    > Lol a race to the bottom as usual with someone who is hooked on western main stream media e.g: "Russians are in mass retreat" - this is comical Lol the Kremlin yesterday posted their daily maps which showed a full retreat from the NE region to Russian borders, and social media is full of videos in NE Ukraine of abandoned gear, tanks, artillery, stockpiles, etc. The Kremlin amusingly calls it a "a planned withdrawal" but even Russian commentators are struggling with the absurdity of the latest spin, because they have front-lines Russian bloggers attached who are filming the abandonment of heavy equipment, supplies and even small arms. How funny that you accuse me of western-MSM when even domestic Russian media has shown it. Bless your sweet little heart, I know, it's really hard to maintain the Russian propaganda in places where the Kremlin can't murder people who disagree. > I'll go further, the wests support is actually tantamount to warmongering (but thats par for the course). And there it is. The 1984 Doublespeak moment that the Russian propaganda thrives on. Defense is Warmongering. Helping is hurting. How dare those dastardly westerners allow Ukraine to freely associate with them! The Ukranian people are the property of Russia and should be thrilled to be "de-nazified"! The proper ethical decision is to simply give in during Russia's "de-nazification" genocide campaign! I'll go further: your defense of the horrific Russian genocide campaign by attempting to blame the West for it is an act of complete moral cowardice and a textbook example of how propaganda leads people to support genocide.
    - ghostwriter 4y ago
      Do Ukraine and the West have a course of action in case of a total energy blackout in Ukraine right before the winter [1]? It seems to me that the local success in Kharkiv is not possible to expand onto other regions without significant army loss, because the adversary is energy-independent and is able to continue indefinitely as long as they don't lose their military or as long as their losses are xN fewer than Ukraine's. How much military did Ukraine lose to achieve success in Kharkiv region? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/11/russian-strikes-knock-out-power-and-water-in-ukraines-kharkiv-region https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/11/russian-strike...
    - criley2 4y ago
      >Do Ukraine and the West have a course of action in case of a total energy blackout in Ukraine right before the winter [1]? While Russia's attacks on Ukraine's power and heating infrastructure are vile and evil and designed to hurt civilians, I do believe that the West has many plans to help the people of Ukraine who are displaced and at-risk due to Russia's warcrimes. This also includes the reality that the Russian's are attempting to destroy nuclear facilities to create a massive regional fallout event, another breathtakingly evil war crime. > It seems to me that the local success in Kharkiv is not possible to expand onto other regions without significant army loss, because the adversary is energy-independent and is able to continue indefinitely as long as their army doesn't lose its military or as long as their losses a xN fewer than Ukraine's. This doesn't make any sense. Russia is not "energy-independent", quite contrary, they require supply lines for fuel to keep the vehicles moving just like everyone else. The Russian supply lines have been notoriously bad this war, which is arguably the #1 reason for the poor Russian performance. (Although American intelligence tracks all Russian supply movement in Ukraine, and American HIMARS can hit any target in Ukraine, so the Ukrainians have viciously destroyed Russian supply infrastructure from long range, forcing Russians to keep supplies far from the front). Ukraine has just dealt a massive blow to the Russian resupply lines by taking major train hubs that the Russians, until 3 days ago, were using to resupply forces across Ukraine. > How much military did Ukraine lose to achieve success in Kharkiv region? Considered that there was very little reports of Russian resistance (they were in full withdrawal and not mounting any kind of stand), reports from both Ukraine and Russia show that losses over the past 3 days have been minimal for both sides.

by 451mov 4y ago

criley2 4y ago

Lol I am going to describe your reply as Russian propaganda for a number of reasons: 1) You "" quoted "support" as a way to diminish it, even though the Western support has clearly been absolutely instrumental in every possible way to the Ukrainian resistance. To deny this is either ignorance or malfeasance. Without western "support" Kyiv would have fallen in the first weeks. Instead, Ukrainians are fully routing the Russians who are in mass retreat. Some "support"!! 2) American lend-lease is a way to reduce domestic red tape and expedite transfers of military equipment. It's a formality and the US is not some creditor hounding nations. In fact, some nations never repaid the WW2 debts at all and no one cares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#Repayment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#Repayment Your characterization of it is... bizarre and weird... unless you're pushing agitprop. If the Ukrainian people make some token tiny payment 50 years from now as a commemoration of this beautiful new brotherhood, it will be a special moment. But if it never comes, no one will care. 3) American lend-lease is SEPARATE from the monetary assistance -- the $15 billion dollars the US has given to Ukraine since the war began is not a lend-lease debt. And American lend-lease obviously doesn't cover things like the MASSIVE Polish contributions. To lump all of Western "support" into "lend-lease", when in reality it's not, again is either ignorance or malfeasance.

451mov 4y ago
Lol a race to the bottom as usual with someone who is hooked on western main stream media e.g: "Russians are in mass retreat" - this is comical. People like you see no nuance, I am against the war in the first instance. A more realistic understanding of geopolitics could and should have avoided this war but that day has long since passed. Yes i am diminishing the "support" provided by the west, as op mentioned if the west was so determined to stand with Ukraine then they should be putting soldiers on the ground. People like you couldn't careless, your "support" will just add fuel to the fire of an already burning Ukraine. I'll go further, the wests support is actually tantamount to warmongering (but thats par for the course).
- criley2 4y ago
  > Lol a race to the bottom as usual with someone who is hooked on western main stream media e.g: "Russians are in mass retreat" - this is comical Lol the Kremlin yesterday posted their daily maps which showed a full retreat from the NE region to Russian borders, and social media is full of videos in NE Ukraine of abandoned gear, tanks, artillery, stockpiles, etc. The Kremlin amusingly calls it a "a planned withdrawal" but even Russian commentators are struggling with the absurdity of the latest spin, because they have front-lines Russian bloggers attached who are filming the abandonment of heavy equipment, supplies and even small arms. How funny that you accuse me of western-MSM when even domestic Russian media has shown it. Bless your sweet little heart, I know, it's really hard to maintain the Russian propaganda in places where the Kremlin can't murder people who disagree. > I'll go further, the wests support is actually tantamount to warmongering (but thats par for the course). And there it is. The 1984 Doublespeak moment that the Russian propaganda thrives on. Defense is Warmongering. Helping is hurting. How dare those dastardly westerners allow Ukraine to freely associate with them! The Ukranian people are the property of Russia and should be thrilled to be "de-nazified"! The proper ethical decision is to simply give in during Russia's "de-nazification" genocide campaign! I'll go further: your defense of the horrific Russian genocide campaign by attempting to blame the West for it is an act of complete moral cowardice and a textbook example of how propaganda leads people to support genocide.
  - ghostwriter 4y ago
    Do Ukraine and the West have a course of action in case of a total energy blackout in Ukraine right before the winter [1]? It seems to me that the local success in Kharkiv is not possible to expand onto other regions without significant army loss, because the adversary is energy-independent and is able to continue indefinitely as long as they don't lose their military or as long as their losses are xN fewer than Ukraine's. How much military did Ukraine lose to achieve success in Kharkiv region? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/11/russian-strikes-knock-out-power-and-water-in-ukraines-kharkiv-region https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/11/russian-strike...
  - criley2 4y ago
    >Do Ukraine and the West have a course of action in case of a total energy blackout in Ukraine right before the winter [1]? While Russia's attacks on Ukraine's power and heating infrastructure are vile and evil and designed to hurt civilians, I do believe that the West has many plans to help the people of Ukraine who are displaced and at-risk due to Russia's warcrimes. This also includes the reality that the Russian's are attempting to destroy nuclear facilities to create a massive regional fallout event, another breathtakingly evil war crime. > It seems to me that the local success in Kharkiv is not possible to expand onto other regions without significant army loss, because the adversary is energy-independent and is able to continue indefinitely as long as their army doesn't lose its military or as long as their losses a xN fewer than Ukraine's. This doesn't make any sense. Russia is not "energy-independent", quite contrary, they require supply lines for fuel to keep the vehicles moving just like everyone else. The Russian supply lines have been notoriously bad this war, which is arguably the #1 reason for the poor Russian performance. (Although American intelligence tracks all Russian supply movement in Ukraine, and American HIMARS can hit any target in Ukraine, so the Ukrainians have viciously destroyed Russian supply infrastructure from long range, forcing Russians to keep supplies far from the front). Ukraine has just dealt a massive blow to the Russian resupply lines by taking major train hubs that the Russians, until 3 days ago, were using to resupply forces across Ukraine. > How much military did Ukraine lose to achieve success in Kharkiv region? Considered that there was very little reports of Russian resistance (they were in full withdrawal and not mounting any kind of stand), reports from both Ukraine and Russia show that losses over the past 3 days have been minimal for both sides.