6 ms·

Maybe it's just because of the connotations we have behind the words, but I don't like the idea that a dinner with friends is somehow "hedonistic," but starting

by nmilo 4y ago

Maybe it's just because of the connotations we have behind the words, but I don't like the idea that a dinner with friends is somehow "hedonistic," but starting a business is somehow filling your life with meaning and purpose. Can't you find meaning and purpose solely in the pursuit of having good times in a good community? Plenty of happy people are happy just because they made lots of good friends and a healthy and happy family. Why should they need to find purpose in some arbitrary goal like running a marathon?

derekp7 4y ago
What you just described is actually the other type (eudaimonic) of happieness. You spent a lot of time and effort to cultivate those friendships and getting into that good community -- it isn't something that you just turn on one afternoon and it goes away the next day. Which is what makes this type of happiness so powerful -- it is like accumulating a lot of stock in a company that pays really good dividends on a regular basis. The dividends for the work (and time) cultivating those friendships and community connections are the punctuations of instances of hedonic happiness that are a direct result from it. Just like learning to play an instrument -- it isn't just possession of a hard-earned skill that makes you happy, it is knowing that you can put that skill to use to make music that you enjoy listening to, and performing for others. That impromptu guitar or piano performance at a random cocktail party may be hedonistic, however it is only made possible by the longer term commitment to the craft. Oh, and it doesn't really need to be hard work. A lot of musicians are in it purely for the joy of the craft. Personally, I get a lot of joy getting better at creating things, whether it is writing computer code or crafting furniture projects using my woodworking tools. And although it takes a time commitment, it is something that I just sit down and do for fun.
- lisper 4y ago
  And possessions can work this way too. Our house is chock full of stuff, but it's stuff that we have acquired during extensive travel around the world. Every tchotchke reminds us of some place we've been and the experiences we had there. The stuff is meaningless to everyone else but full of meaning for us. Case in point: I have a cheap stuffed animal in the shape of a lobster. Out of context it's a piece of junk. But when you know that I bought it to commemorate the very first ad ever placed on Adwords (I was the lead engineer on that project back in 2000) -- a company called Lively Lobsters -- it takes on deep significance.
  - tdehnel 4y ago
    - lisper 4y ago
      It's no different than people who like to talk about their kids. I could have told you about the art work on my refrigerator that my kid drew in third grade, except that would be a lie because I don't have any kids. My legacy, such as it is, is my work, and my little stuffed lobster is no less a token of that than the third grade art project on the refrigerator would be if I had one of those. I'm sorry if that offended you. Talking about one's children is generally considered a socially acceptable thing to do. A little tacky perhaps, but not something that merits a snide response.
      - javert 4y ago
        Most people here enjoy that sort of story. I certainly do. Your comment wasn't tacky and didn't deserve a snide response.
    - javert 4y ago
      This comment really stood out to me as being particularly nasty. Most people here like hearing the sort of stories that your comment serves to actively discourage.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  Eudaimonic and hedonistic happiness both seem wrong to me, as you can't desire happiness - well you can, but then you won't find it, as you can only stumble upon it. Like in Harry Potter and the Philosopher Stone, when Harry is forced to stand before the Mirror of Erised, the mirror recognises Harry's lack of greed for the stone and deposits it into his pocket. Life is like the Mirror of Erised: if you have a lack of greed for happiness, life will bestow you with happiness - which is what makes it so hard to get!
  - brokenmachine 4y ago
    I don't really agree. I think you can know what ingredients are more likely to make you happy, and you can direct your life towards them. With your outlook what does one do? Just sit there and wait for happiness to appear?
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      > I think you can know what ingredients are more likely to make you happy, How do you know you know for sure? Are you positive you know everything that can make you happy? It's a knowledge/discovery problem. > With your outlook what does one do? Just sit there and wait for happiness to appear? No, we can use your approximation indeed, but after the facts (ex-post) instead of before (ex-ante): you need take sample of the multidimensional space then try to do gradient descent. The sampling part has to be random - so you randomly try things. Some of things will make you happier, and sometimes much more than they should, so you tweak one parameter, try again and see if you are less happy or more happy. That's just using algorithms on actual life.
      - brokenmachine 4y ago
        Pretty disruptive to try out big changes on a whim though such as different jobs or living location, and those kinds of changes are the ones I would think are most likely to have a large effect on happiness level.
        4y ago
- andrepd 4y ago
  > Happiness from friendships and community it is like accumulating a lot of stock in a company that pays really good dividends on a regular basis. What a bleak way to view things. A very neoliberal zeitgeist indeed.
  - derekp7 4y ago
    The intention wasn't to compare wealth with happiness, but was to draw a comparison between two different domains, with one that some people can objectively understand. The idea being that in finance, you can for example buy an object (collectable, gold, virtual currency, ...) and it just sits there collecting dust. It may go up in value, but to realize that value you have to sell it, then you don't have it anymore. Whereas investing in something that generates value (dividend paying stock, education, tools for your business, ...) gives you returns without having to sell it. Although in most cases you still have to put in work (you have to work at education, and work to utilize it, and you have to apply work to your tools to generate value). Same is true for other non-financial areas -- it takes work to make the connections and maintain friendships, and there is effort that continuously goes into the processes that give you rewards for those friendships (you can't just be one-sided, take but not give, and there is not magic formula, you just muddle through it the best you can).
eyelidlessness 4y ago
To that point, I have a life mainly oriented around the article’s investment kind of happiness, and I can’t imagine a life where I enjoy that without also having the article’s fleeting kind of happiness. And I’d even say I’ve damaged my ability to pursue or enjoy either by overly focusing on the former.
jollybean 4y ago
Because it's not arbitrary, that's the point. Also, having 'a good job and good family' would likely also be a form of 'eudaimonic' happiness. 'Hedonic' happiness is more like being in a 'joyful state of being'.
throwyawayyyy 4y ago
I think I had the same reaction. How useful is the word "happiness" here? "Pleasure" seems a better term for the author's first sort of happiness. So, sure, pleasure is important in life but cannot be the only thing. The second sort, is that happiness at all? Striving towards a sense of accomplishment or satisfaction. The problem in this world we've made is not that people choose to spend a fun time with friends rather than run a marathon. It's pleasures that are hardly even pleasures. It's getting angry on the internet, or gambling, or taking this or that substance because it's easier than living.
- verisimi 4y ago
  Yes, he's using the wrong word with "happiness". "Good life", "best life" are better conceptions for what he's trying to get to. I like your point that it's pleasures are hardly pleasures. Why do you think this is? For me the explanation is that this is not a world that I have had much input in making, nor is it unfolding naturally. Instead I think it is planned by powerful forces and steered in a way that uses our (good) nature against to achieve greater control. Eg, technology is a neutral 'tool' but it is being used to track everyone and everything. Events such as epidemics, result in greater centralised control, less individual freedom. The direction is towards greater authoritarianism. Everyone will struggle for happiness/the best life under those conditions. (Except those running the system.)
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  >The problem in this world we've made is not that people choose to spend a fun time with friends rather than run a marathon. It's pleasures that are hardly even pleasures. It's getting angry on the internet, or gambling, or taking this or that substance because it's easier than living. My (and I suspect many others') personal issue is that I'm forced to spend so much of my energy working that at the end of the day/week I only have enough left to veg out with wasted time like reddit or whatever. The things that truly make me happy take more energy, which I can't summon when forced to deal with life's necessities for >10h/day.
AussieWog93 4y ago
>Can't you find meaning and purpose solely in the pursuit of having good times in a good community? It's definitely possible to find purpose and meaning in good times, but without a good community? That's a work of fiction promoted by modern secular society.
- cornel_io 4y ago
  Many communities are toxic as fuck, and for many people every community anywhere near them is dangerous. You're insane to think that community is necessary to find purpose/meaning in life. Plenty of us have had to escape and avoid all communities in order to survive, and we are doing extremely well. Fuck your "fiction promoted by modern society", the life that works for you does not prove that everyone else should live the same way.
  - AussieWog93 4y ago
    Yet here you are. :)
  - yesenadam 4y ago
    Please make your points on HN without being so abusive. Thanks. Your comment breaks many of the HN guidelines, e.g. "Be kind. Don't be snarky. ...Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. ...When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dang 4y ago
    Yikes, can you please not post comments like this or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32436006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32436006? They break the site guidelines badly, and we have to ban accounts that do that. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
em-bee 4y ago
some of the examples seem misplaced but the overall abstract idea sounds right. maybe think of the dinner example as a lavish party with people who want to show off more than being there with you instead of a quieter dinner with only your close friends and not many other people. and i agree with you, building community to me is one of the highest goals for long-term happiness. ultimately for me the purpose of life is to contribute to our ever-advancing civilization, and happiness comes from doing that together with others and enjoying the friendships that result from that work.
kareemsabri 4y ago
I think that's fair, and the author choose a bad example (doing cocaine might have been better, or watching Netflix). But I think the difference between the other examples is they involve some sort of a mission. It's difficult (imo) for humans to find fulfillment just in "having a good time" unfortunately.
andrepd 4y ago
Dinners with friends, walks in nature, time spent with family, is what I live for.

by nmilo 4y ago

derekp7 4y ago

What you just described is actually the other type (eudaimonic) of happieness. You spent a lot of time and effort to cultivate those friendships and getting into that good community -- it isn't something that you just turn on one afternoon and it goes away the next day. Which is what makes this type of happiness so powerful -- it is like accumulating a lot of stock in a company that pays really good dividends on a regular basis. The dividends for the work (and time) cultivating those friendships and community connections are the punctuations of instances of hedonic happiness that are a direct result from it. Just like learning to play an instrument -- it isn't just possession of a hard-earned skill that makes you happy, it is knowing that you can put that skill to use to make music that you enjoy listening to, and performing for others. That impromptu guitar or piano performance at a random cocktail party may be hedonistic, however it is only made possible by the longer term commitment to the craft. Oh, and it doesn't really need to be hard work. A lot of musicians are in it purely for the joy of the craft. Personally, I get a lot of joy getting better at creating things, whether it is writing computer code or crafting furniture projects using my woodworking tools. And although it takes a time commitment, it is something that I just sit down and do for fun.

lisper 4y ago
And possessions can work this way too. Our house is chock full of stuff, but it's stuff that we have acquired during extensive travel around the world. Every tchotchke reminds us of some place we've been and the experiences we had there. The stuff is meaningless to everyone else but full of meaning for us. Case in point: I have a cheap stuffed animal in the shape of a lobster. Out of context it's a piece of junk. But when you know that I bought it to commemorate the very first ad ever placed on Adwords (I was the lead engineer on that project back in 2000) -- a company called Lively Lobsters -- it takes on deep significance.
- tdehnel 4y ago
  - lisper 4y ago
    It's no different than people who like to talk about their kids. I could have told you about the art work on my refrigerator that my kid drew in third grade, except that would be a lie because I don't have any kids. My legacy, such as it is, is my work, and my little stuffed lobster is no less a token of that than the third grade art project on the refrigerator would be if I had one of those. I'm sorry if that offended you. Talking about one's children is generally considered a socially acceptable thing to do. A little tacky perhaps, but not something that merits a snide response.
    - javert 4y ago
      Most people here enjoy that sort of story. I certainly do. Your comment wasn't tacky and didn't deserve a snide response.
  - javert 4y ago
    This comment really stood out to me as being particularly nasty. Most people here like hearing the sort of stories that your comment serves to actively discourage.
csdvrx 4y ago
Eudaimonic and hedonistic happiness both seem wrong to me, as you can't desire happiness - well you can, but then you won't find it, as you can only stumble upon it. Like in Harry Potter and the Philosopher Stone, when Harry is forced to stand before the Mirror of Erised, the mirror recognises Harry's lack of greed for the stone and deposits it into his pocket. Life is like the Mirror of Erised: if you have a lack of greed for happiness, life will bestow you with happiness - which is what makes it so hard to get!
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  I don't really agree. I think you can know what ingredients are more likely to make you happy, and you can direct your life towards them. With your outlook what does one do? Just sit there and wait for happiness to appear?
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    > I think you can know what ingredients are more likely to make you happy, How do you know you know for sure? Are you positive you know everything that can make you happy? It's a knowledge/discovery problem. > With your outlook what does one do? Just sit there and wait for happiness to appear? No, we can use your approximation indeed, but after the facts (ex-post) instead of before (ex-ante): you need take sample of the multidimensional space then try to do gradient descent. The sampling part has to be random - so you randomly try things. Some of things will make you happier, and sometimes much more than they should, so you tweak one parameter, try again and see if you are less happy or more happy. That's just using algorithms on actual life.
    - brokenmachine 4y ago
      Pretty disruptive to try out big changes on a whim though such as different jobs or living location, and those kinds of changes are the ones I would think are most likely to have a large effect on happiness level.
      - 4y ago
andrepd 4y ago
> Happiness from friendships and community it is like accumulating a lot of stock in a company that pays really good dividends on a regular basis. What a bleak way to view things. A very neoliberal zeitgeist indeed.
- derekp7 4y ago
  The intention wasn't to compare wealth with happiness, but was to draw a comparison between two different domains, with one that some people can objectively understand. The idea being that in finance, you can for example buy an object (collectable, gold, virtual currency, ...) and it just sits there collecting dust. It may go up in value, but to realize that value you have to sell it, then you don't have it anymore. Whereas investing in something that generates value (dividend paying stock, education, tools for your business, ...) gives you returns without having to sell it. Although in most cases you still have to put in work (you have to work at education, and work to utilize it, and you have to apply work to your tools to generate value). Same is true for other non-financial areas -- it takes work to make the connections and maintain friendships, and there is effort that continuously goes into the processes that give you rewards for those friendships (you can't just be one-sided, take but not give, and there is not magic formula, you just muddle through it the best you can).

eyelidlessness 4y ago

To that point, I have a life mainly oriented around the article’s investment kind of happiness, and I can’t imagine a life where I enjoy that without also having the article’s fleeting kind of happiness. And I’d even say I’ve damaged my ability to pursue or enjoy either by overly focusing on the former.

jollybean 4y ago

Because it's not arbitrary, that's the point. Also, having 'a good job and good family' would likely also be a form of 'eudaimonic' happiness. 'Hedonic' happiness is more like being in a 'joyful state of being'.

throwyawayyyy 4y ago

I think I had the same reaction. How useful is the word "happiness" here? "Pleasure" seems a better term for the author's first sort of happiness. So, sure, pleasure is important in life but cannot be the only thing. The second sort, is that happiness at all? Striving towards a sense of accomplishment or satisfaction. The problem in this world we've made is not that people choose to spend a fun time with friends rather than run a marathon. It's pleasures that are hardly even pleasures. It's getting angry on the internet, or gambling, or taking this or that substance because it's easier than living.

verisimi 4y ago
Yes, he's using the wrong word with "happiness". "Good life", "best life" are better conceptions for what he's trying to get to. I like your point that it's pleasures are hardly pleasures. Why do you think this is? For me the explanation is that this is not a world that I have had much input in making, nor is it unfolding naturally. Instead I think it is planned by powerful forces and steered in a way that uses our (good) nature against to achieve greater control. Eg, technology is a neutral 'tool' but it is being used to track everyone and everything. Events such as epidemics, result in greater centralised control, less individual freedom. The direction is towards greater authoritarianism. Everyone will struggle for happiness/the best life under those conditions. (Except those running the system.)
brokenmachine 4y ago
>The problem in this world we've made is not that people choose to spend a fun time with friends rather than run a marathon. It's pleasures that are hardly even pleasures. It's getting angry on the internet, or gambling, or taking this or that substance because it's easier than living. My (and I suspect many others') personal issue is that I'm forced to spend so much of my energy working that at the end of the day/week I only have enough left to veg out with wasted time like reddit or whatever. The things that truly make me happy take more energy, which I can't summon when forced to deal with life's necessities for >10h/day.

AussieWog93 4y ago

>Can't you find meaning and purpose solely in the pursuit of having good times in a good community? It's definitely possible to find purpose and meaning in good times, but without a good community? That's a work of fiction promoted by modern secular society.

cornel_io 4y ago
Many communities are toxic as fuck, and for many people every community anywhere near them is dangerous. You're insane to think that community is necessary to find purpose/meaning in life. Plenty of us have had to escape and avoid all communities in order to survive, and we are doing extremely well. Fuck your "fiction promoted by modern society", the life that works for you does not prove that everyone else should live the same way.
- AussieWog93 4y ago
  Yet here you are. :)
- yesenadam 4y ago
  Please make your points on HN without being so abusive. Thanks. Your comment breaks many of the HN guidelines, e.g. "Be kind. Don't be snarky. ...Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. ...When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 4y ago
  Yikes, can you please not post comments like this or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32436006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32436006? They break the site guidelines badly, and we have to ban accounts that do that. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

em-bee 4y ago

some of the examples seem misplaced but the overall abstract idea sounds right. maybe think of the dinner example as a lavish party with people who want to show off more than being there with you instead of a quieter dinner with only your close friends and not many other people. and i agree with you, building community to me is one of the highest goals for long-term happiness. ultimately for me the purpose of life is to contribute to our ever-advancing civilization, and happiness comes from doing that together with others and enjoying the friendships that result from that work.

kareemsabri 4y ago

I think that's fair, and the author choose a bad example (doing cocaine might have been better, or watching Netflix). But I think the difference between the other examples is they involve some sort of a mission. It's difficult (imo) for humans to find fulfillment just in "having a good time" unfortunately.

andrepd 4y ago

Dinners with friends, walks in nature, time spent with family, is what I live for.