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If rapists and terrorists used their water or electrical service as a primary means to rape and terrorize, then those infrastructure services would find themsel

by irons 4y ago

If rapists and terrorists used their water or electrical service as a primary means to rape and terrorize, then those infrastructure services would find themselves feeling justified pressure to develop terms of service prohibiting that conduct, and to cut off the rapists and terrorists who violated those terms. "Infrastructure" has the luxury of being value-neutral. Cloudflare wishes that were also true of it, frequently and publicly, to no avail.

scrollaway 4y ago
> those infrastructure services would find themselves feeling justified pressure to develop terms of service prohibiting that conduct I don't think you understand how infrastructure works or is regulated… And yes, sometimes this is the case. Even now: Electricity providers are as guilty of keeping those forums online as Cloudflare is. Whatever your "primary means" is, electricity is just as needed as Cloudflare's services are (more, in fact). So… no, you're wrong, there's been zero pressure on the infra, because that pressure is not possible. Law enforcement needs to intervene, period.
kevingadd 4y ago
Your electrical service can and will be shut off if you use it in a way that the utility provider objects to. If you've never read the rules for your power company it might be enlightening, the ones for PG&E I just pulled up are dozens of pages and list lots of obligations the customer has. ISPs will also shut you off if they feel like it, for example if you run a server or they otherwise object to what you're doing. CloudFlare already did this too - they have a history of cutting off sex workers who use their services.
- robocat 4y ago
  > they have a history of cutting off sex workers who use their services You are making irrelevant aspersions - they cut of sex workers because they are adhering to the US FOSTA laws: "We also terminate security services for content which is illegal in the United States — where Cloudflare is headquartered. This includes Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM) as well as content subject to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA)."
  - kevingadd 4y ago
    Right, and CF is arguing that something is incredibly dangerous or illegal about KF's content right now, so it's the same, no?
  - _chendo_ 4y ago
    Cloudflare knowingly fronts many sites that violate FOSTA. They only cared when Switter made the press. Cloudflare gave us no warning when they suspended our account. What makes even less sense is that Cloudflare's Head of Sales emailed us offering their services when we mentioned we were getting DDOSed as an escort directory.
    - robocat 4y ago
      Perhaps “making the press” is one limit that legal council use to decide whether CloudFlare is knowingly (according to internal legal theory) breaking the FOSTA laws: i.e. that the legal liability exceeds their appetite for risk. Their exact internal rules for deciding to terminate a sex-worker site are unlikely to be published by CloudFlare, and it could depend on non-public correspondence sent to CloudFlare. “Knowingly” is very legally vague as per this article: https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-politics-of-section-230-reform-learning-from-fostas-mistakes/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-politics-of-section-2...
      - _chendo_ 4y ago
        If they're so worried about FOSTA, it seems bad for their Head of Sales to offer services to an escort directory, no?
HideousKojima 4y ago
Cloudflare provides DDoS protection. Suppose there were arsonists repeatedly trying to burn down the house of some neo-nazi author. Then suppose a group of people with supposedly no association with the arsonists pressuring the local fire department to stop putting out arson fires for the evil neo-nazi. Does that not raise all sorts of alarm bells for you? Or are people on HN (and the general public) really that far gone?

by irons 4y ago

scrollaway 4y ago

> those infrastructure services would find themselves feeling justified pressure to develop terms of service prohibiting that conduct I don't think you understand how infrastructure works or is regulated… And yes, sometimes this is the case. Even now: Electricity providers are as guilty of keeping those forums online as Cloudflare is. Whatever your "primary means" is, electricity is just as needed as Cloudflare's services are (more, in fact). So… no, you're wrong, there's been zero pressure on the infra, because that pressure is not possible. Law enforcement needs to intervene, period.

kevingadd 4y ago

Your electrical service can and will be shut off if you use it in a way that the utility provider objects to. If you've never read the rules for your power company it might be enlightening, the ones for PG&E I just pulled up are dozens of pages and list lots of obligations the customer has. ISPs will also shut you off if they feel like it, for example if you run a server or they otherwise object to what you're doing. CloudFlare already did this too - they have a history of cutting off sex workers who use their services.

robocat 4y ago
> they have a history of cutting off sex workers who use their services You are making irrelevant aspersions - they cut of sex workers because they are adhering to the US FOSTA laws: "We also terminate security services for content which is illegal in the United States — where Cloudflare is headquartered. This includes Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM) as well as content subject to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA)."
- kevingadd 4y ago
  Right, and CF is arguing that something is incredibly dangerous or illegal about KF's content right now, so it's the same, no?
- _chendo_ 4y ago
  Cloudflare knowingly fronts many sites that violate FOSTA. They only cared when Switter made the press. Cloudflare gave us no warning when they suspended our account. What makes even less sense is that Cloudflare's Head of Sales emailed us offering their services when we mentioned we were getting DDOSed as an escort directory.
  - robocat 4y ago
    Perhaps “making the press” is one limit that legal council use to decide whether CloudFlare is knowingly (according to internal legal theory) breaking the FOSTA laws: i.e. that the legal liability exceeds their appetite for risk. Their exact internal rules for deciding to terminate a sex-worker site are unlikely to be published by CloudFlare, and it could depend on non-public correspondence sent to CloudFlare. “Knowingly” is very legally vague as per this article: https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-politics-of-section-230-reform-learning-from-fostas-mistakes/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-politics-of-section-2...
    - _chendo_ 4y ago
      If they're so worried about FOSTA, it seems bad for their Head of Sales to offer services to an escort directory, no?

HideousKojima 4y ago

Cloudflare provides DDoS protection. Suppose there were arsonists repeatedly trying to burn down the house of some neo-nazi author. Then suppose a group of people with supposedly no association with the arsonists pressuring the local fire department to stop putting out arson fires for the evil neo-nazi. Does that not raise all sorts of alarm bells for you? Or are people on HN (and the general public) really that far gone?