8 ms·

You’re not understanding his argument. Medieval Europe didn’t have this internalized concept of race or skin color like we do - they categorized people more by

You’re not understanding his argument. Medieval Europe didn’t have this internalized concept of race or skin color like we do - they categorized people more by religion (catholic, Protestant, Muslim) or origin.

Maursault 4y ago
Fair enough, but that still sounds absurdly idyllic and very hard to believe. I would expect it to be the opposite, that there was extreme racism even between different families within the same culture, and mostly only in Europe and not so much in the Middle and Far East. Europeans invented racism, and I would have expected it to have occurred around the fall of the Western Roman Empire. But this is all conjecture.
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >Europeans invented racism Perhaps the most absurd assertion I've seen this year, in a year characterized by bizarre assertions.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    Though conceptually, racism has existed since the dawn of civilization in pre-recorded history, with dominant peoples discriminating against, stereotyping, repressing and enslaving entire peoples (such as the Egyptian civilization enslaving the Jewish civilization, and including widespread antisemitism from antiquity into the modern era), the concept of race did not enter languages as a specific word until the 15th Century, with the word "race" itself being traced in English to the advent of British imperialism and in Spanish (la raza) to Spanish imperialism.[1] So only in a strictly literal sense did Europeans invent racism, though the English word "racism" itself did not enter language until the late 19th Century or very early 20th Century in America[2] as a reaction to that which had no word yet to describe it, but already existed for centuries in one sense, and for millennia in the wider conceptual sense. [1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human/The-history-of-the-idea-of-rac https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human/The-history-of-t... [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/01/05/260006815/the-ugly-fascinating-history-of-the-word-racism https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/01/05/260006815...
- scarmig 4y ago
  It wasn't idyllic. The Holy Roman Empire suffered millions of civilian deaths during the 30 years war (on the order of a third of its population). It's just the categories people used were things like region or (especially) religion. Race and racial ideology were developed in Europe, but it was in tandem with the modern era, not before it. Think 17th-19th centuries. It served a concrete purpose: to explain and justify how the leading European nations interacted with their colonial subjects. But there was no reason for race before colonialism, so it never developed because it would have served no purpose then.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    This idea of racism being a modern invention is merely an academic theory. There is no doubt there were periodic exterminations of Jews in classical antiquity and atrocities perpetrated against Jews throughout the Middle Ages. Antisemitism is racism. Though the word "race" was probably coined in tandem with British Imperialism, Black slavery and the modern era, race, in fact, does not exist. Race is entirely a social construction, and regardless of the words used in antiquity, the same concepts were used to discriminate against, stereotype, repress and enslave peoples from the very dawn of civilization.
- setr 4y ago
  The in-groups and out-groups always exist, and will be at war perpetually. It’s naive to think such a division would begin and end at something so superficial as skin color; you can go much more specific. Why would the British man go out of his way to identify himself with those bloody red-haired potato-fetishizing Irishmen? Or the pompous Frenchmen who cover their pervasive stench in perfumes and jam lard into anything they can find in some depraved vision of “high couture”? Or the barbarians and savages of the east, who can’t tell the difference between a puff of wind and God? The 12th century African man hardly runs around thinking “we’re all black, so we’re all the same so nothing to fight about” — they just choose a different division and massacre one another on that basis You would only bother with white vs black racism when there’s enough blacks to identify against and vice versa; otherwise you choose different boundaries and compete on that. Religion, country, skin color, geography (eg mountain men vs hicks vs cityfolk); there’s more than enough choices to go around. And hell, there’s something stopping you from applying multiple boundaries simultaneously Your 16th century farming peasant in the corner of England doesn’t see enough Africans or Middle Easterns or Asians to wield race as an effective identity. Your Roman’s could have, but they also had quite the diverse array of colors and folks through varying conquest — race probably played a role in internal conflict (Roman vs roman) but even then religion was clearly the far stronger identifier and a much stronger motivator for their slaughters.
- user_named 4y ago
- meany 4y ago
  Is it correct to interpret your view as non-Europeans did not view other groups as inferior? That the superiority of the in group is exclusive to Europe? If so, why do you think this only occurred in Europe? What made Europeans different from these other groups?

Maursault 4y ago

Fair enough, but that still sounds absurdly idyllic and very hard to believe. I would expect it to be the opposite, that there was extreme racism even between different families within the same culture, and mostly only in Europe and not so much in the Middle and Far East. Europeans invented racism, and I would have expected it to have occurred around the fall of the Western Roman Empire. But this is all conjecture.

StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>Europeans invented racism Perhaps the most absurd assertion I've seen this year, in a year characterized by bizarre assertions.
- Maursault 4y ago
  Though conceptually, racism has existed since the dawn of civilization in pre-recorded history, with dominant peoples discriminating against, stereotyping, repressing and enslaving entire peoples (such as the Egyptian civilization enslaving the Jewish civilization, and including widespread antisemitism from antiquity into the modern era), the concept of race did not enter languages as a specific word until the 15th Century, with the word "race" itself being traced in English to the advent of British imperialism and in Spanish (la raza) to Spanish imperialism.[1] So only in a strictly literal sense did Europeans invent racism, though the English word "racism" itself did not enter language until the late 19th Century or very early 20th Century in America[2] as a reaction to that which had no word yet to describe it, but already existed for centuries in one sense, and for millennia in the wider conceptual sense. [1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human/The-history-of-the-idea-of-rac https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human/The-history-of-t... [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/01/05/260006815/the-ugly-fascinating-history-of-the-word-racism https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/01/05/260006815...
scarmig 4y ago
It wasn't idyllic. The Holy Roman Empire suffered millions of civilian deaths during the 30 years war (on the order of a third of its population). It's just the categories people used were things like region or (especially) religion. Race and racial ideology were developed in Europe, but it was in tandem with the modern era, not before it. Think 17th-19th centuries. It served a concrete purpose: to explain and justify how the leading European nations interacted with their colonial subjects. But there was no reason for race before colonialism, so it never developed because it would have served no purpose then.
- Maursault 4y ago
  This idea of racism being a modern invention is merely an academic theory. There is no doubt there were periodic exterminations of Jews in classical antiquity and atrocities perpetrated against Jews throughout the Middle Ages. Antisemitism is racism. Though the word "race" was probably coined in tandem with British Imperialism, Black slavery and the modern era, race, in fact, does not exist. Race is entirely a social construction, and regardless of the words used in antiquity, the same concepts were used to discriminate against, stereotype, repress and enslave peoples from the very dawn of civilization.
setr 4y ago
The in-groups and out-groups always exist, and will be at war perpetually. It’s naive to think such a division would begin and end at something so superficial as skin color; you can go much more specific. Why would the British man go out of his way to identify himself with those bloody red-haired potato-fetishizing Irishmen? Or the pompous Frenchmen who cover their pervasive stench in perfumes and jam lard into anything they can find in some depraved vision of “high couture”? Or the barbarians and savages of the east, who can’t tell the difference between a puff of wind and God? The 12th century African man hardly runs around thinking “we’re all black, so we’re all the same so nothing to fight about” — they just choose a different division and massacre one another on that basis You would only bother with white vs black racism when there’s enough blacks to identify against and vice versa; otherwise you choose different boundaries and compete on that. Religion, country, skin color, geography (eg mountain men vs hicks vs cityfolk); there’s more than enough choices to go around. And hell, there’s something stopping you from applying multiple boundaries simultaneously Your 16th century farming peasant in the corner of England doesn’t see enough Africans or Middle Easterns or Asians to wield race as an effective identity. Your Roman’s could have, but they also had quite the diverse array of colors and folks through varying conquest — race probably played a role in internal conflict (Roman vs roman) but even then religion was clearly the far stronger identifier and a much stronger motivator for their slaughters.
user_named 4y ago
meany 4y ago
Is it correct to interpret your view as non-Europeans did not view other groups as inferior? That the superiority of the in group is exclusive to Europe? If so, why do you think this only occurred in Europe? What made Europeans different from these other groups?