6 ms·

stupid question from a sailor: how does a trace eight differ from a standard figure of eight?

endgame 4y ago
It's a loop knot made using a figure-8, then retracing the knot with the tail. Climbers use it where sailors would tend to use a bowline. I've heard various reasons why: "it's easier to teach people in the gym", "it's harder to get wrong", "the dynamic ropes climbers use put bowlines at risk of capsizing".
- beefield 4y ago
  My understanding why bowlines are disliked in climbing community is that it may fail if the pull does not come from the long tail, but from inside the loop. That is, cliiping two carabiners to bowline loop and pulling the carabiners apart is not a safe way to use bowline.
- Ao7bei3s 4y ago
  The reasons are all correct; in addition: 1. It's very easy to visually check (five pairs of parallel lines) (by easy I don't just mean reliably, I also mean low effort, which is important because you do it a lot - point fingers at the pairs of parallel lines: "two four six eight ten"). It's very symmetric. If done wrong it tends to look radically different. 2. It requires pulling in 2 places in different directions to come undone. The bowline opens if you pull in 1 bad spot. (3. In the gym, you can just leave the normal figure eight on the rope, which saves the next climber a bit of time. Not a lot, but it's a nice feature.)
- codeduck 4y ago
  I've been sailing since I was seven years old, and I still have to think when I'm tying a bowline. So I can believe the comment about it being easier to teach.
- 2mol 4y ago
  Nobody does a bowline, that's insane because you can't ring-load (cross-load) it. [0] Europeans sometimes do the double bowline (traced), but the naming is ambiguous in english, so you have to google double bowline on a bight. Americans used to do yosemite bowlines, but that fell out of fashion because figure eight (safe and foolproof) and double bowline (safe, trivial to untie after hefty lead falls) cover literally every use case perfectly. [0]: https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blog/cross-loading-on-knots https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blog/cross-loading-on-knots
  - robinhouston 4y ago
    A bowline with stopper is a pretty common climbing knot in the UK [0]. I don't have the expertise to weigh into any debates about how safe it is, but I've seen a lot of people use it without incident, and there's no question it's easier to untie than a rethreaded figure-eight. [0] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_tie_in_to_the_rope-4755 https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_tie_in_to_...
    - craneabove 4y ago
      Also, Adam Ondra routinely climbs using this tie-in method for the reasons you mention.
      - 2mol 4y ago
        The yosemite variant is fine, but maybe we shouldn't take the world's best climber as a reference who has a lot more context and experience to make very measured tradeoffs: > IMPORTANT: This knot is methodically NOT recommended and yes, it MAY untie while you are climbing. It can happen if your rope is new-ish (and that means it slides easily) and if you don’t tighten the knot with a lot of force. I am always splashing chalk on the knot in case of new rope to increase the friction and I do tighten it with a lot of force. The reasonable and recommended alternative, pretty common and very safe is double bowline. It is almost as big as eight, but at least it is always easy to untie. https://adamondra.com/updates/my-climbing-more-about-feeling-or-thinking https://adamondra.com/updates/my-climbing-more-about-feeling...
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matsemann 4y ago
The trace eight goes "back" into itself, leaving a loop at the end. When making the knot, you make it so that the loop goes through your climbing harness, like this: https://wildsummits.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/knot-cover-scaled.jpg https://wildsummits.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/knot-cover... While the eight you use for sailing is mostly a stop knot at the end of the rope. So two very different uses.
- rtkwe 4y ago
  The only real difference is the trace version you can tie into an existing loop where with the bight version you need a carabiner to connect in. Every time I've done climbing or repelling we've just used carabiners instead of tying directly into the rope.
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andyjohnson0 4y ago
I don't think theres any difference in the final knot - its how you tie it. Tying a figure of eight in the rope and then re-tracing it back is necessary because your harness loops (not shown in the pic) will be in the bight. I'm guessing a sailor wouldn't need to tie anything into the bight, so retracing wouldn't be necessary. I've never heard of a fig-eight being referred to as "trace" but this may be an US-ism and I'm European.
rtkwe 4y ago
You can tie a trace 8 directly into an existing loop like your climbing harness where an 8 on a bight needs a carabiner. Most people would just use a carabiner anyways though.
racnid 4y ago
The more correct term would probably be a figure 8 on a bight. But since climbing harnesses have permanently sewn loops to tie into you can't actually tie it on a bight. You retrace the knot. Otherwise it's a standard figure 8 knot with a loop coming out one end.

It's a loop knot made using a figure-8, then retracing the knot with the tail. Climbers use it where sailors would tend to use a bowline. I've heard various reasons why: "it's easier to teach people in the gym", "it's harder to get wrong", "the dynamic ropes climbers use put bowlines at risk of capsizing".

beefield 4y ago
My understanding why bowlines are disliked in climbing community is that it may fail if the pull does not come from the long tail, but from inside the loop. That is, cliiping two carabiners to bowline loop and pulling the carabiners apart is not a safe way to use bowline.
Ao7bei3s 4y ago
The reasons are all correct; in addition: 1. It's very easy to visually check (five pairs of parallel lines) (by easy I don't just mean reliably, I also mean low effort, which is important because you do it a lot - point fingers at the pairs of parallel lines: "two four six eight ten"). It's very symmetric. If done wrong it tends to look radically different. 2. It requires pulling in 2 places in different directions to come undone. The bowline opens if you pull in 1 bad spot. (3. In the gym, you can just leave the normal figure eight on the rope, which saves the next climber a bit of time. Not a lot, but it's a nice feature.)
codeduck 4y ago
I've been sailing since I was seven years old, and I still have to think when I'm tying a bowline. So I can believe the comment about it being easier to teach.
2mol 4y ago
Nobody does a bowline, that's insane because you can't ring-load (cross-load) it. [0] Europeans sometimes do the double bowline (traced), but the naming is ambiguous in english, so you have to google double bowline on a bight. Americans used to do yosemite bowlines, but that fell out of fashion because figure eight (safe and foolproof) and double bowline (safe, trivial to untie after hefty lead falls) cover literally every use case perfectly. [0]: https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blog/cross-loading-on-knots https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blog/cross-loading-on-knots
- robinhouston 4y ago
  A bowline with stopper is a pretty common climbing knot in the UK [0]. I don't have the expertise to weigh into any debates about how safe it is, but I've seen a lot of people use it without incident, and there's no question it's easier to untie than a rethreaded figure-eight. [0] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_tie_in_to_the_rope-4755 https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_tie_in_to_...
  - craneabove 4y ago
    Also, Adam Ondra routinely climbs using this tie-in method for the reasons you mention.
    - 2mol 4y ago
      The yosemite variant is fine, but maybe we shouldn't take the world's best climber as a reference who has a lot more context and experience to make very measured tradeoffs: > IMPORTANT: This knot is methodically NOT recommended and yes, it MAY untie while you are climbing. It can happen if your rope is new-ish (and that means it slides easily) and if you don’t tighten the knot with a lot of force. I am always splashing chalk on the knot in case of new rope to increase the friction and I do tighten it with a lot of force. The reasonable and recommended alternative, pretty common and very safe is double bowline. It is almost as big as eight, but at least it is always easy to untie. https://adamondra.com/updates/my-climbing-more-about-feeling-or-thinking https://adamondra.com/updates/my-climbing-more-about-feeling...

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matsemann 4y ago

The trace eight goes "back" into itself, leaving a loop at the end. When making the knot, you make it so that the loop goes through your climbing harness, like this: https://wildsummits.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/knot-cover-scaled.jpg https://wildsummits.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/knot-cover... While the eight you use for sailing is mostly a stop knot at the end of the rope. So two very different uses.

rtkwe 4y ago
The only real difference is the trace version you can tie into an existing loop where with the bight version you need a carabiner to connect in. Every time I've done climbing or repelling we've just used carabiners instead of tying directly into the rope.

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andyjohnson0 4y ago

I don't think theres any difference in the final knot - its how you tie it. Tying a figure of eight in the rope and then re-tracing it back is necessary because your harness loops (not shown in the pic) will be in the bight. I'm guessing a sailor wouldn't need to tie anything into the bight, so retracing wouldn't be necessary. I've never heard of a fig-eight being referred to as "trace" but this may be an US-ism and I'm European.

rtkwe 4y ago

You can tie a trace 8 directly into an existing loop like your climbing harness where an 8 on a bight needs a carabiner. Most people would just use a carabiner anyways though.

racnid 4y ago

The more correct term would probably be a figure 8 on a bight. But since climbing harnesses have permanently sewn loops to tie into you can't actually tie it on a bight. You retrace the knot. Otherwise it's a standard figure 8 knot with a loop coming out one end.