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California DMV accuses Tesla of making false claims about Autopilot and FSD

washbrain 4y ago
Good. Having sold my Tesla after 8 years of ownership, I can't believe what that company is getting away with. The car was fun to drive, but the build quality and service were terrible. And the continuous upsell to FSD, even 8 years ago, was such a hassle.
- perrohunter 4y ago
  What they were producing 8 years ago and what they produce nowadays is an order of magnitude different. It’s like comparing your PC from 8 years ago to today’s PCs.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    True, but a few years ago they had a huge problem with Model3 and ModelY quality- you had to be very careful and inspect the whole car for serious problems before accepting delivery.
    - adoxyz 4y ago
      lol if you look at any Tesla forums, this is still very much the case with all cars they make. The refreshed Model X seems to be hot garbage from a quality control stand point.
      - panick21_ 4y ago
        Tesla forum is literally the perfect example of selection bias.
        washbrain 4y ago
        Except it's not. If there were no defects, there would be no defects reported on the forums. The number of cars sold is public. The parent isn't suggesting looking at the ratio of happy and sad posters, which would definitely be selection bias, they are saying look at the rate and severity of complaints on it's own.
        panick21_ 4y ago
        If you have a defect you are about 1000x more likely to go to the forum. Of course there are defects, at that volume that would be expected. Parent didn't say anything about rates.
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    I'm not sure that the differences are that huge. AP is more capable, but also has more phantom braking issues. The cars themselves have more range and charge faster, but its not an order of magnitude. Maybe charge times on a road trip have dropped by ~50%. Service has generally gotten worse as well, as the company has really struggled to scale. They've added a lot of mobile service and service centers, but they still can't keep up with the pace of growth. Good thing is that most of the newer cars aren't needing service much, but when they do it can be problematic.
- culi 4y ago
  Tesla ranked 27th out of 28 car companies on Consumer Reports 2021 reliability rankings. They also ranked 30th out of 33 in JD Power's measurement of how many first-year issues new cars had. You're definitely not alone
hyperpape 4y ago
I can see that "Autopilot" is arguably a marketing term. I don't like it, I feel like it's irresponsible, but I can see the argument that it's not false advertising. It's hard to see ambiguity about "Full Self Driving". What's next, will they argue that "The Car Drives Itself, You Can Take a Nap" isn't meant to be taken literally?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jrmg 4y ago
  “Full self driving” isn’t just ambiguous, it’s fraudulent. The car can in no way fully ‘drive’ itself unless you define ‘driving’ as not including many things that are universally thought of as necessary skills to operate a car. [edit: rereading your comment, I see we’re actually in agreement!]
  - misiti3780 4y ago
    How is it fraudulent - they dont claim to be selling L5 FSD?
    - adoxyz 4y ago
      On Tesla's website under the Autopilot page, there is a video that opens up with "The car is doing all the driving. The driver is just there for legal purposes" https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot That paired with the name of "Full Self Driving" really does a good job of implying that the car drivers itself...
    - belkinpower 4y ago
      Words have meanings. If you call something “full self-driving” you can’t get upset when people assume it means full self-driving.
      - v0idzer0 4y ago
        But you can get upset when people ignore the numerous warnings from the car which beeps at you if you take your hands off the wheel or look away from the road for too long. I find I drive better with it, because the car literally forces me to pay attention.
adoxyz 4y ago
Autopilot in my opinion is fine. It def is a bit confusing, but really it's just a fancy TACC. FSD on the other hand is 1000% false advertising.
inversefft 4y ago
I have no issue with the term autopilot. Boeing sells planes with autopilot, no one expects them to be fully autonomous. The FSD name makes more sense for the software they've got in public beta than their current offering. Interestingly the only difference between "enhanced autopilot" and FSD right now is the ability to stop at stop lights.
- tremon 4y ago
  Boeing doesn't sell to consumers, their customers are large companies. There's quite a difference in the level of knowledge/competence to be expected between those two markets. So "this is fine in B2B" does not automatically translate into "this is fine when targeting John Q Public".
  - inversefft 4y ago
    Last I checked drivers are still required to be licensed and understand the functionality of their cars.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - NegativeLatency 4y ago
      By taking a driving test one time in their life? Also if you fly like a maniac you’ll get your license taken away, which is very much not the case for driving.
    - umeshunni 4y ago
      Yes, but they're not being trained on a specific car model like pilots are.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      They've incorporated the best practices for managing the limitations of Tesla's autopilot into driving tests now? Glad to hear it.
culi 4y ago
Before Tesla came out with autopilot, Google had done extensive user research on "autopilot" cars and found that no matter how many times you tell users that they must be fully attentive, people WILL go on their phones or stop paying attention. It's the entire reason Google didn't go to market with their technology before Tesla Then Musk came along and completely ignored the research (which he must've been really aware about considering Google was in negotiations to buy Tesla) and even took the advertising a step further. He KNEW people wouldn't pay attention but sold the cars with that marketing anyways. IMO the blood of the 15 people who have died due to autopilot is directly on his hands as well as the thousands of other injuries due to autopilot accidents Tesla's still have problems. They made up 273 accidents involving driver-assistance systems in 2021. 70% of all such accidents.
- chmod600 4y ago
  Are Teslas more lethal per mile than other cars?
  - toolz 4y ago
    I really hope FSD isn't heading down the path of setting a dangerous precedent that tech advancements must be perfect before society utilizes them. We have a technology that we know will reduce death and injury and likely by a drastic margin, but we're not utilizing it because it isn't perfect yet?
    - mikestew 4y ago
      ...because it isn't perfect yet? No, because it hasn't been demonstrated to even work as promised, let alone "isn't perfect".
      - toolz 4y ago
        They release quarterly data that shows it works as promised and is much safer than human drivers on highways.
andrewmcwatters 4y ago
Tesla is the only company that seems to have this issue considering many big players have some form of ACC and LKAS. You just don’t hear Toyota calling their self-driving “Toyota Autosteer.” This all seems to be driven by arrogance and marketing.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  Other companies do not fully collect the data on crashes while autosteer type features are active and how many miles they are driven. Comparison is difficult. NHTSA is making headway, but its going to take time to reach accurate conclusions.

Good. Having sold my Tesla after 8 years of ownership, I can't believe what that company is getting away with. The car was fun to drive, but the build quality and service were terrible. And the continuous upsell to FSD, even 8 years ago, was such a hassle.

perrohunter 4y ago
What they were producing 8 years ago and what they produce nowadays is an order of magnitude different. It’s like comparing your PC from 8 years ago to today’s PCs.
- dekhn 4y ago
  True, but a few years ago they had a huge problem with Model3 and ModelY quality- you had to be very careful and inspect the whole car for serious problems before accepting delivery.
  - adoxyz 4y ago
    lol if you look at any Tesla forums, this is still very much the case with all cars they make. The refreshed Model X seems to be hot garbage from a quality control stand point.
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      Tesla forum is literally the perfect example of selection bias.
      - washbrain 4y ago
        Except it's not. If there were no defects, there would be no defects reported on the forums. The number of cars sold is public. The parent isn't suggesting looking at the ratio of happy and sad posters, which would definitely be selection bias, they are saying look at the rate and severity of complaints on it's own.
        panick21_ 4y ago
        If you have a defect you are about 1000x more likely to go to the forum. Of course there are defects, at that volume that would be expected. Parent didn't say anything about rates.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  I'm not sure that the differences are that huge. AP is more capable, but also has more phantom braking issues. The cars themselves have more range and charge faster, but its not an order of magnitude. Maybe charge times on a road trip have dropped by ~50%. Service has generally gotten worse as well, as the company has really struggled to scale. They've added a lot of mobile service and service centers, but they still can't keep up with the pace of growth. Good thing is that most of the newer cars aren't needing service much, but when they do it can be problematic.
culi 4y ago
Tesla ranked 27th out of 28 car companies on Consumer Reports 2021 reliability rankings. They also ranked 30th out of 33 in JD Power's measurement of how many first-year issues new cars had. You're definitely not alone

hyperpape 4y ago

I can see that "Autopilot" is arguably a marketing term. I don't like it, I feel like it's irresponsible, but I can see the argument that it's not false advertising. It's hard to see ambiguity about "Full Self Driving". What's next, will they argue that "The Car Drives Itself, You Can Take a Nap" isn't meant to be taken literally?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jrmg 4y ago
“Full self driving” isn’t just ambiguous, it’s fraudulent. The car can in no way fully ‘drive’ itself unless you define ‘driving’ as not including many things that are universally thought of as necessary skills to operate a car. [edit: rereading your comment, I see we’re actually in agreement!]
- misiti3780 4y ago
  How is it fraudulent - they dont claim to be selling L5 FSD?
  - adoxyz 4y ago
    On Tesla's website under the Autopilot page, there is a video that opens up with "The car is doing all the driving. The driver is just there for legal purposes" https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot That paired with the name of "Full Self Driving" really does a good job of implying that the car drivers itself...
  - belkinpower 4y ago
    Words have meanings. If you call something “full self-driving” you can’t get upset when people assume it means full self-driving.
    - v0idzer0 4y ago
      But you can get upset when people ignore the numerous warnings from the car which beeps at you if you take your hands off the wheel or look away from the road for too long. I find I drive better with it, because the car literally forces me to pay attention.

adoxyz 4y ago

Autopilot in my opinion is fine. It def is a bit confusing, but really it's just a fancy TACC. FSD on the other hand is 1000% false advertising.

inversefft 4y ago

I have no issue with the term autopilot. Boeing sells planes with autopilot, no one expects them to be fully autonomous. The FSD name makes more sense for the software they've got in public beta than their current offering. Interestingly the only difference between "enhanced autopilot" and FSD right now is the ability to stop at stop lights.

tremon 4y ago
Boeing doesn't sell to consumers, their customers are large companies. There's quite a difference in the level of knowledge/competence to be expected between those two markets. So "this is fine in B2B" does not automatically translate into "this is fine when targeting John Q Public".
- inversefft 4y ago
  Last I checked drivers are still required to be licensed and understand the functionality of their cars.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - NegativeLatency 4y ago
    By taking a driving test one time in their life? Also if you fly like a maniac you’ll get your license taken away, which is very much not the case for driving.
  - umeshunni 4y ago
    Yes, but they're not being trained on a specific car model like pilots are.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    They've incorporated the best practices for managing the limitations of Tesla's autopilot into driving tests now? Glad to hear it.

culi 4y ago

Before Tesla came out with autopilot, Google had done extensive user research on "autopilot" cars and found that no matter how many times you tell users that they must be fully attentive, people WILL go on their phones or stop paying attention. It's the entire reason Google didn't go to market with their technology before Tesla Then Musk came along and completely ignored the research (which he must've been really aware about considering Google was in negotiations to buy Tesla) and even took the advertising a step further. He KNEW people wouldn't pay attention but sold the cars with that marketing anyways. IMO the blood of the 15 people who have died due to autopilot is directly on his hands as well as the thousands of other injuries due to autopilot accidents Tesla's still have problems. They made up 273 accidents involving driver-assistance systems in 2021. 70% of all such accidents.

chmod600 4y ago
Are Teslas more lethal per mile than other cars?
- toolz 4y ago
  I really hope FSD isn't heading down the path of setting a dangerous precedent that tech advancements must be perfect before society utilizes them. We have a technology that we know will reduce death and injury and likely by a drastic margin, but we're not utilizing it because it isn't perfect yet?
  - mikestew 4y ago
    ...because it isn't perfect yet? No, because it hasn't been demonstrated to even work as promised, let alone "isn't perfect".
    - toolz 4y ago
      They release quarterly data that shows it works as promised and is much safer than human drivers on highways.

andrewmcwatters 4y ago

Tesla is the only company that seems to have this issue considering many big players have some form of ACC and LKAS. You just don’t hear Toyota calling their self-driving “Toyota Autosteer.” This all seems to be driven by arrogance and marketing.

_ea1k 4y ago
Other companies do not fully collect the data on crashes while autosteer type features are active and how many miles they are driven. Comparison is difficult. NHTSA is making headway, but its going to take time to reach accurate conclusions.