6 ms·

>Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes Well, you are still forced to do

by fruffy 4y ago

>Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes Well, you are still forced to do all that. After all, you often depend on your advisor's funding or expectations. They can make or break you. You get "freedom", but with that freedom 1) you do not have an actual contract listing your hours or any sort of vacation policy. 2) vacations in general are not a thing (it is really important to submit that paper over Christmas). 3) health benefits and family support depend on the whims of the department, any sort of pension plan is unheard of. 4) you sometimes get paid, sometimes not (depending on whether some administrative clerk "forgets" to put you on payroll this term). 5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money). 6) as F1 student you are not permitted to find other means of income unless approved by your advisor or department. If they approve, they have to approve every single term (good luck with that). 7) you can try to pursue your own research but then you should also expect to be isolated, receiving no support or feedback from either your lab, peers, or advisor. This is one of the most common stories. Usually, these students just wither away or drop out. These are not isolated issues, mind you. This is pretty common across the board from what I have seen. And all of these issues are tolerable, if you were at least paid a living wage. But commonly the pay you get barely covers the rent in the city you live in. Thankfully, I am in a better position and I have an accommodating advisor, but I still think this is a depressing state of affairs.

psi75 4y ago
5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money). Yeah, this is very true, and it's degenerate, because research is a 12-month job and deserves a 12-month salary. It seems to me that academia takes advantage of extremely smart people (and delusional middling-smart people) because it knows they have nowhere else to go. If you're a legit 140+, you're at the level where corporate America becomes to become a non-option because you're just too different, if not necessarily from the other people, from what you are expected to be as a subordinate.
empyrrhicist 4y ago
Do you not have a graduate student union?
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Ours just did nonsense like run a cafe.
  - empyrrhicist 4y ago
    Are you thinking of "union" in the sense of a building or common area? That's different. I mean an actual union chapter.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      The National Union of Students is a pretty big and active union in the UK. I don't know what qualifies something as an 'actual union chapter' or not.
      - light_hue_1 4y ago
        That's a union as in, we're students getting together to have fun. People here are talking about a union as in organized labor. Where you have a leadership who negotiates a contract with the university, where you're a dues paying member, where you go on strike when advisors systematically abuse students. You aren't part of a union sadly :(
        chrisseaton 4y ago
        > Where you have a leadership who negotiates a contract with the university, where you're a dues paying member, where you go on strike when advisors systematically abuse students. The NUS does all these things though. They have a leadership who negotiates with the university, they strike sometimes (a bit self-defeating - nobody suffers except their own education,) they take dues from you (via the university, so you don't see them.) They even campaign against politicians, and once made a concerted effort to get members of parliament unseated. That's more than most blue-collar unions do. Except negotiate contracts, as you don't have a contract because... you're a student not labour - the crux of the issue under discussion! But you're right I wasn't part of it - I opted out because as I say all they really achieved was running a mediocre cafe.
ModernMech 4y ago
I don’t disbelieve your post, I’m sure you’re speaking from experience, but this is a YMMV kind of deal. 1) I did have a contract listing hours, and the vacation policy was the academic calendar: a week in the fall, 5 weeks in the winter, a week in the spring, 3 months in the summer. 2) I didn’t experience any work whatsoever during Christmas 3) Didn’t have a pension plan, but the University did offer reasonable health benefits, and the ACA covered the rest of my family at a low premium. 4) I definitely got paid regularly through the University payroll system. 5) I was given summer contracts to continue doing paid research over the summer. This was a choice, I could have taken internships or a vacation. 6) This is more of an issue with US visas, not really something academics can control 7) I was definitely well supported by my lab, peers, and advisors when I pursued my own research goals. They were very eager to see my results. I wouldn’t say that your bullet points really represent my institution, so “across the board” usually has a boundary at a specific department or school. I wouldn’t generalize your or my experience to all schools, as they can vary substantially.
- gh02t 4y ago
  Yeah, I fully believe OPs experience as I have heard horror stories but similarly my experience with an engineering PhD was that we were treated well. We had contracts, semi-reasonable pay, vacation, healthcare etc.
taylodl 4y ago
My son is currently working on his Ph.D. in CS. I've been working in industry for nearly 40 years. Let me address some of your points. 1. Many, many jobs don't have an actual contract listing your hours or any sort of vacation policy. Even for the jobs that do, there's no guarantee you'll actually be able to take your vacation, or take it when you'd like. 2. See (1). Vacations are almost always worked around projects. I grew up in an engineering environment and I can tell you that's just life in an engineering environment. 3. Many universities offer student health plans. And check your calendar - the year is 2022. Pensions don't exist anywhere - at least not for new employees. 4. I've experienced that working for a start-up too. It happens. 5. My son hasn't had a problem finding work over the summer - that's the bulk of his income. Yes, he also has to continue his research. But, working 60-80 hours per week for 3 months per year is pretty much normal at many places. Whether that should be the case or not is another issue, but I don't see the Ph.D. student getting hit particularly harder than anyone else. 6. The trick is to align your jobs with your research. My son hasn't had problems in that regard. Also, CS departments like to forge and maintain contacts in private industry. So there's research alignment and department alignment to think about. 7. Pursuing your own research that's not aligned with your department isn't smart. After all, you chose that department - weren't you into what they were researching? Hadn't you talked about what kinds of things you were interested in before they brought you on? This is a two-way street - there's things they're looking to get from you and there's things you're looking to get from them. Also, no person is an island - you're going to need help. No one is likely to help you if you're viewed as a maverick who isn't aligned with the department goals. You are correct that the wages are barely livable. I can tell you from the experience my daughter had in pursuing a Ph.D. that the stipends for CS students are considerably higher than the stipends available for other fields in science. Plus the CS students have the opportunity to work over the Summer and make the "big bucks." Altogether you should be making $60K-$70K per year, which isn't a lot as far as CS grads go, but it's considerably better than subsistence living. That's the equivalent of making $30-$45 per hour which is a wage most Americans would find damn good, and can only dream about earning that kind of money. All told, there's a lot you have to go through to get a Ph.D. and lots of it is politicking. That's why smart people hire Ph.D. grads - they know they're people who can work against the long odds and still come out successful. That's a desirable trait to have in the people you hire. So yes, you can easily make double the money you're currently making, but you're never going to have the opportunity to research as you do now. Hopefully you chose your department wisely and are aligned with the kind of research they're into.

by fruffy 4y ago

psi75 4y ago

5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money). Yeah, this is very true, and it's degenerate, because research is a 12-month job and deserves a 12-month salary. It seems to me that academia takes advantage of extremely smart people (and delusional middling-smart people) because it knows they have nowhere else to go. If you're a legit 140+, you're at the level where corporate America becomes to become a non-option because you're just too different, if not necessarily from the other people, from what you are expected to be as a subordinate.

empyrrhicist 4y ago

Do you not have a graduate student union?

chrisseaton 4y ago
Ours just did nonsense like run a cafe.
- empyrrhicist 4y ago
  Are you thinking of "union" in the sense of a building or common area? That's different. I mean an actual union chapter.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    The National Union of Students is a pretty big and active union in the UK. I don't know what qualifies something as an 'actual union chapter' or not.
    - light_hue_1 4y ago
      That's a union as in, we're students getting together to have fun. People here are talking about a union as in organized labor. Where you have a leadership who negotiates a contract with the university, where you're a dues paying member, where you go on strike when advisors systematically abuse students. You aren't part of a union sadly :(
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        > Where you have a leadership who negotiates a contract with the university, where you're a dues paying member, where you go on strike when advisors systematically abuse students. The NUS does all these things though. They have a leadership who negotiates with the university, they strike sometimes (a bit self-defeating - nobody suffers except their own education,) they take dues from you (via the university, so you don't see them.) They even campaign against politicians, and once made a concerted effort to get members of parliament unseated. That's more than most blue-collar unions do. Except negotiate contracts, as you don't have a contract because... you're a student not labour - the crux of the issue under discussion! But you're right I wasn't part of it - I opted out because as I say all they really achieved was running a mediocre cafe.

ModernMech 4y ago

I don’t disbelieve your post, I’m sure you’re speaking from experience, but this is a YMMV kind of deal. 1) I did have a contract listing hours, and the vacation policy was the academic calendar: a week in the fall, 5 weeks in the winter, a week in the spring, 3 months in the summer. 2) I didn’t experience any work whatsoever during Christmas 3) Didn’t have a pension plan, but the University did offer reasonable health benefits, and the ACA covered the rest of my family at a low premium. 4) I definitely got paid regularly through the University payroll system. 5) I was given summer contracts to continue doing paid research over the summer. This was a choice, I could have taken internships or a vacation. 6) This is more of an issue with US visas, not really something academics can control 7) I was definitely well supported by my lab, peers, and advisors when I pursued my own research goals. They were very eager to see my results. I wouldn’t say that your bullet points really represent my institution, so “across the board” usually has a boundary at a specific department or school. I wouldn’t generalize your or my experience to all schools, as they can vary substantially.

gh02t 4y ago
Yeah, I fully believe OPs experience as I have heard horror stories but similarly my experience with an engineering PhD was that we were treated well. We had contracts, semi-reasonable pay, vacation, healthcare etc.

taylodl 4y ago

My son is currently working on his Ph.D. in CS. I've been working in industry for nearly 40 years. Let me address some of your points. 1. Many, many jobs don't have an actual contract listing your hours or any sort of vacation policy. Even for the jobs that do, there's no guarantee you'll actually be able to take your vacation, or take it when you'd like. 2. See (1). Vacations are almost always worked around projects. I grew up in an engineering environment and I can tell you that's just life in an engineering environment. 3. Many universities offer student health plans. And check your calendar - the year is 2022. Pensions don't exist anywhere - at least not for new employees. 4. I've experienced that working for a start-up too. It happens. 5. My son hasn't had a problem finding work over the summer - that's the bulk of his income. Yes, he also has to continue his research. But, working 60-80 hours per week for 3 months per year is pretty much normal at many places. Whether that should be the case or not is another issue, but I don't see the Ph.D. student getting hit particularly harder than anyone else. 6. The trick is to align your jobs with your research. My son hasn't had problems in that regard. Also, CS departments like to forge and maintain contacts in private industry. So there's research alignment and department alignment to think about. 7. Pursuing your own research that's not aligned with your department isn't smart. After all, you chose that department - weren't you into what they were researching? Hadn't you talked about what kinds of things you were interested in before they brought you on? This is a two-way street - there's things they're looking to get from you and there's things you're looking to get from them. Also, no person is an island - you're going to need help. No one is likely to help you if you're viewed as a maverick who isn't aligned with the department goals. You are correct that the wages are barely livable. I can tell you from the experience my daughter had in pursuing a Ph.D. that the stipends for CS students are considerably higher than the stipends available for other fields in science. Plus the CS students have the opportunity to work over the Summer and make the "big bucks." Altogether you should be making $60K-$70K per year, which isn't a lot as far as CS grads go, but it's considerably better than subsistence living. That's the equivalent of making $30-$45 per hour which is a wage most Americans would find damn good, and can only dream about earning that kind of money. All told, there's a lot you have to go through to get a Ph.D. and lots of it is politicking. That's why smart people hire Ph.D. grads - they know they're people who can work against the long odds and still come out successful. That's a desirable trait to have in the people you hire. So yes, you can easily make double the money you're currently making, but you're never going to have the opportunity to research as you do now. Hopefully you chose your department wisely and are aligned with the kind of research they're into.