6 ms·

Are you making the argument that we should be striving for a decrease in consumption? Because I can see no compelling argument that that should be so. In fact,

Are you making the argument that we should be striving for a decrease in consumption? Because I can see no compelling argument that that should be so. In fact, we should be using way more energy. It should be green, but trying to tell people to use less is a guaranteed way for any kind of climate action to fail. Cheaper, cleaner, more abundant, is the only way we are going to move forward, people are just not going to sign up to a future we're we use less than our parents generation.

tjoff 4y ago
> [...] people are just not going to sign up to a future we're we use less than our parents generation. This is why we are doomed and why a sizeable and increasing portion of our society has no hope.
- v-erne 4y ago
  My thoughts also. Greed has no limits. I have lots of absurdly rich family members and friends and all they do is talk and think how to have more (I once witnessed a coversation where someone was complaining that he have to drive 2 hours to his favorite golf course while his brother takes his private helicopter and is there in 15 munutes - I kid You not!)
- thomasmg 4y ago
  The problem isn't the amount of usage of electricity, the problem is CO2.
  - tjoff 4y ago
    They are for the most part interlinked. Even with solar. Also, we have more problems than CO2. Buying an AC isn't climate-neutral even if electricity is free (and that is also without taking into account that "free electricity" doesn't come for free, and additionally, in time needs maintenance and replacing as well). Producing a billion electric vehicles and enough solar to sustain them isn't either.
    - freemint 4y ago
      Yeah but earth overshoot day would be way later if we ran solar powered electric cars. So that's a good thing.
      - tjoff 4y ago
        The point was that it's not good enough.
        freemint 4y ago
        I'd like to see your math on that.
        tjoff 4y ago
        You said it yourself that it would just delay it... But you think that solar panels and electric vehicles would be enough?
        freemint 4y ago
        If it is delayed past the years end we are good, are we not?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
Barrin92 4y ago
>Are you making the argument that we should be striving for a decrease in consumption? Because I can see no compelling argument Yes. The compelling argument is that we're late on the clock when it comes to even fulfilling the modest measures we've set ourselves and that if we don't act faster we're going to destroy our ecology for both future generations and countless of other species on this planet. That's not compelling or clear enough? You want to sit in 50°C degree summer heat and ration your food because crops aren't sustainable rather than ration some energy now? Because you don't get to 'sign up' for anything, you'll have to pick one.
- internet_user 4y ago
  Could you argue how nuclear energy will cause 50 degree summers? Because I cannot.
  - discreteevent 4y ago
    This is a race against time. We need to put out the fire right now with whatever we have to prevent damage to this building and spread to other buildings. This might buy us some time to work on better fire prevention in future.
    - bergenty 4y ago
      Using renewable energy is putting out the fire. There’s no reason to advocate for reduced consumption of it. It doesn’t add to the fire.
- gwicks56 4y ago
  If the energy is clean, what difference does it make how much we use? Should a break through happen in fusion tonight, and clean limitless green energy became available cheaply, would you still argue we should use less? The fact remains that what people say they care about, and what they are prepared to sacrifice for, are two totally separate things. What you are suggesting is essentially an enforced recession ( drop in consumption and quality of life). Politicians are never rewarded for having a recession on their watch. It's just never going to fly. It's as realistic as we can end war if everyone would just be nicer to one another.
eastbound 4y ago
Aren’t they? I see swathes of young voters in UE, everywhere I go, who claim that we should consume less, and who align their actions with their beliefs with: - Not having travelled more than 200km from home for the last 10 years, - A friend who is CEO of renewable startup in Paris and is worth 60m€ today (the company is ~300m€), spent his wedding trip in France instead of Maldives, - Not eating meat, - Using blankets instead of heating at home, - Suffer through 40°C rather than use A/C, - Buy organic at the local market. It’s enough voters that the entirety of Europe cheers Macron & Merkel’s decision to cut off our gas supplies from Russia in 6 months. Sure it’s about the war, but people’s mindset is that we’d have to do it anyway for ecology, so why not now. And when you do speak with partisans, they acknowledge that we’ll half-replace with other sources, but they also tell you that the goal is to consume less in absolute numbers. At least this (majority) of people in Europe is mentally prepared to use much less energy than their parent’s generation, and the little remainder should be renewable. They accept the deflation that it represents. They’d be happy to be poor for those political ideals of leaving a healed earth to the next generation. Whether or not you believe in their vision, their vision is certainly not to replace-and-increase energy consumption.
- vasco 4y ago
  > At least this (majority) of people in Europe is mentally prepared to use much less energy than their parent’s generation Do you have a source for this because I've lived here all my life and in 3 different European countries and this is not really something I've seen, other than some young people caring about green energy, it's definitely not the majority and definitely varies a lot country to country. Your average Pole has a very different stance to your average Dutch.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  > It’s enough voters that the entirety of Europe cheers Macron & Merkel’s decision to cut off our gas supplies from Russia in 6 months. Merkel?
- cyberlurker 4y ago
  This observation is detached from reality in so many ways it should be a copypasta. Merkel is not even in office anymore and you can be sure Macron wouldn’t be either if it wasn’t for French nuclear power and that he just won an election before these decisions. Germany doesn't even know if they will make it through the winter properly. The claim that deflation is largely accepted is wrong and in conflict with EU leadership statement and goals. A segment of the EU is cheering on the decision due to the war first and foremost. The environmental benefits are laughable because they have already turned to restarting coal plants that were previously shut down. No, the youth are great but this is a deluded view.

tjoff 4y ago

> [...] people are just not going to sign up to a future we're we use less than our parents generation. This is why we are doomed and why a sizeable and increasing portion of our society has no hope.

v-erne 4y ago
My thoughts also. Greed has no limits. I have lots of absurdly rich family members and friends and all they do is talk and think how to have more (I once witnessed a coversation where someone was complaining that he have to drive 2 hours to his favorite golf course while his brother takes his private helicopter and is there in 15 munutes - I kid You not!)
thomasmg 4y ago
The problem isn't the amount of usage of electricity, the problem is CO2.
- tjoff 4y ago
  They are for the most part interlinked. Even with solar. Also, we have more problems than CO2. Buying an AC isn't climate-neutral even if electricity is free (and that is also without taking into account that "free electricity" doesn't come for free, and additionally, in time needs maintenance and replacing as well). Producing a billion electric vehicles and enough solar to sustain them isn't either.
  - freemint 4y ago
    Yeah but earth overshoot day would be way later if we ran solar powered electric cars. So that's a good thing.
    - tjoff 4y ago
      The point was that it's not good enough.
      - freemint 4y ago
        I'd like to see your math on that.
        tjoff 4y ago
        You said it yourself that it would just delay it... But you think that solar panels and electric vehicles would be enough?
        freemint 4y ago
        If it is delayed past the years end we are good, are we not?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]

Barrin92 4y ago

>Are you making the argument that we should be striving for a decrease in consumption? Because I can see no compelling argument Yes. The compelling argument is that we're late on the clock when it comes to even fulfilling the modest measures we've set ourselves and that if we don't act faster we're going to destroy our ecology for both future generations and countless of other species on this planet. That's not compelling or clear enough? You want to sit in 50°C degree summer heat and ration your food because crops aren't sustainable rather than ration some energy now? Because you don't get to 'sign up' for anything, you'll have to pick one.

internet_user 4y ago
Could you argue how nuclear energy will cause 50 degree summers? Because I cannot.
- discreteevent 4y ago
  This is a race against time. We need to put out the fire right now with whatever we have to prevent damage to this building and spread to other buildings. This might buy us some time to work on better fire prevention in future.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Using renewable energy is putting out the fire. There’s no reason to advocate for reduced consumption of it. It doesn’t add to the fire.
gwicks56 4y ago
If the energy is clean, what difference does it make how much we use? Should a break through happen in fusion tonight, and clean limitless green energy became available cheaply, would you still argue we should use less? The fact remains that what people say they care about, and what they are prepared to sacrifice for, are two totally separate things. What you are suggesting is essentially an enforced recession ( drop in consumption and quality of life). Politicians are never rewarded for having a recession on their watch. It's just never going to fly. It's as realistic as we can end war if everyone would just be nicer to one another.

eastbound 4y ago

Aren’t they? I see swathes of young voters in UE, everywhere I go, who claim that we should consume less, and who align their actions with their beliefs with: - Not having travelled more than 200km from home for the last 10 years, - A friend who is CEO of renewable startup in Paris and is worth 60m€ today (the company is ~300m€), spent his wedding trip in France instead of Maldives, - Not eating meat, - Using blankets instead of heating at home, - Suffer through 40°C rather than use A/C, - Buy organic at the local market. It’s enough voters that the entirety of Europe cheers Macron & Merkel’s decision to cut off our gas supplies from Russia in 6 months. Sure it’s about the war, but people’s mindset is that we’d have to do it anyway for ecology, so why not now. And when you do speak with partisans, they acknowledge that we’ll half-replace with other sources, but they also tell you that the goal is to consume less in absolute numbers. At least this (majority) of people in Europe is mentally prepared to use much less energy than their parent’s generation, and the little remainder should be renewable. They accept the deflation that it represents. They’d be happy to be poor for those political ideals of leaving a healed earth to the next generation. Whether or not you believe in their vision, their vision is certainly not to replace-and-increase energy consumption.

vasco 4y ago
> At least this (majority) of people in Europe is mentally prepared to use much less energy than their parent’s generation Do you have a source for this because I've lived here all my life and in 3 different European countries and this is not really something I've seen, other than some young people caring about green energy, it's definitely not the majority and definitely varies a lot country to country. Your average Pole has a very different stance to your average Dutch.
jacquesm 4y ago
> It’s enough voters that the entirety of Europe cheers Macron & Merkel’s decision to cut off our gas supplies from Russia in 6 months. Merkel?
cyberlurker 4y ago
This observation is detached from reality in so many ways it should be a copypasta. Merkel is not even in office anymore and you can be sure Macron wouldn’t be either if it wasn’t for French nuclear power and that he just won an election before these decisions. Germany doesn't even know if they will make it through the winter properly. The claim that deflation is largely accepted is wrong and in conflict with EU leadership statement and goals. A segment of the EU is cheering on the decision due to the war first and foremost. The environmental benefits are laughable because they have already turned to restarting coal plants that were previously shut down. No, the youth are great but this is a deluded view.