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Dead Cells is a popular recent one. Hades classifies as well I believe. A ~roguelike~ rogue-lite is something where you start from the beginning repeatedly, a

Dead Cells is a popular recent one. Hades classifies as well I believe. A ~roguelike~ rogue-lite is something where you start from the beginning repeatedly, and each "run" or playthrough you change the game state somehow (varies by game) so that the next run is easier / you have more in-game options for progression. Almost always with randomized game features available each run. It's worth noting that "rogue-like" is a description for the Game Play Loop, not the look / feel of the game. A roguelike can be top-down, side scroller, 2d, 3D, etc.

fknorangesite 4y ago
> Hades classifies as well I believe. ... each "run" or playthrough you change the game state somehow (varies by game) so that the next run is easier / you have more in-game options for progression. Usually this is how the community differentiates between "roguelikes" (i.e., like the original Rogue[1] - with no persistence between runs), and "roguelites" where there is some amount of carryover, like in Hades. Of course, like any time you have a bunch of dorks arguing about nomenclature, there are a bunch of grey-area examples that people fight over as if it matters more than it actually does. Anyway, tangent: Hades fucking rules. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)
- cupofpython 4y ago
  Oh cool, I wasn't aware of that distinction
hypertele-Xii 4y ago
> each "run" or playthrough you change the game state somehow (varies by game) so that the next run is easier / you have more in-game options for progression. You've fallen for the hostile takeover. Roguelike used to mean the exact opposite of that: Each run starts from scratch, independent of all previous runs. Some roguelikes, that is, games like Rogue [0], implemented "player ghosts", monsters based on previously dead player characters, but that's the only persistent progression in a roguelike. It saddens me that the term has been hijacked by modern indie developers to pretend to mean just about any game that has any amount of randomness in it. Dead Cells is not a roguelike. Hades is not a roguelike. They are action RPGs more like Diablo. Diablo, by the way, is also not a roguelike. WHAT IS A ROGUELIKE? As the name suggests, it is a game like Rogue. The genre hasn't evolved a better name yet, kind of how first-person shooters were originally called "Doom clones". So what was Rogue like? First and foremost it was a turn-based tactics game, where you had an unbounded amount of time to ponder your next move. It had highly randomized content, you'd have to make do with what you found. It was a dungeon crawling, exploration, turn-based tactical combat game with permadeath and no persistence of progression. You lose, you start all over. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)
- cupofpython 4y ago
  I was going off of how the rogue-like tag is currently used in game marketplaces, like Steam. You are technically correct, I learned something new, and I updated - but as far as seeing the phrase in the wild and trying to predict what to expect, my comment stands. Hades and Dead Cells are certainly not like diablo. the core game loop is to lose and try again, not build up a strong character over the course of a single playthrough as is typically expected of action-rpgs. It seems like the definition of rogue-like has expanded due to popularity of the genre (as things do) and you have a purist attitude that rejects the new compromises. Rather than create contention over something you cant control, it might be better to highlight permadeath and no persistence as a subtype of rogue-likes for which the original game falls under. And yes, it probably does need a better general-purpose name but unfortunately the thing it describes is rather abstract so idk what a concise self-evident phrase could be for it
  - remram 4y ago
    Most games labelled as rogue-like on Steam do not feature a persistent progression. Examples are Slay the Spire and Spelunky. Saying that it's a feature of the genre is definitely wrong.
    - cupofpython 4y ago
      >Saying that it's a feature of the genre is definitely wrong. good thing I am not saying that then The point is that if you see "roguelike" then those features could be there, not that they necessarily will be there. We are talking about a genre, which is a pretty general thing An FPS could have grenades, but it might not. And including grenades does not suddenly mean it is no longer an FPS. Steam does list Dead Cells as both a roguelike and a roguelite. So yeah, you literally will find these features in this genre.
      - remram 4y ago
        This is your characterization: > each "run" or playthrough you change the game state somehow (varies by game) so that the next run is easier / you have more in-game options for progression. You didn't say they could have that, you said they did. You can change your comment in a way that it would be correct, yes. I could describe dogs as "brown animals", then you'd say that's not usually true. I could reply that some modern dogs are brown now so I'm not always wrong, but describing dogs as "brown animals" is definitely an incorrect definition.

fknorangesite 4y ago

> Hades classifies as well I believe. ... each "run" or playthrough you change the game state somehow (varies by game) so that the next run is easier / you have more in-game options for progression. Usually this is how the community differentiates between "roguelikes" (i.e., like the original Rogue[1] - with no persistence between runs), and "roguelites" where there is some amount of carryover, like in Hades. Of course, like any time you have a bunch of dorks arguing about nomenclature, there are a bunch of grey-area examples that people fight over as if it matters more than it actually does. Anyway, tangent: Hades fucking rules. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)

cupofpython 4y ago
Oh cool, I wasn't aware of that distinction

hypertele-Xii 4y ago

> each "run" or playthrough you change the game state somehow (varies by game) so that the next run is easier / you have more in-game options for progression. You've fallen for the hostile takeover. Roguelike used to mean the exact opposite of that: Each run starts from scratch, independent of all previous runs. Some roguelikes, that is, games like Rogue [0], implemented "player ghosts", monsters based on previously dead player characters, but that's the only persistent progression in a roguelike. It saddens me that the term has been hijacked by modern indie developers to pretend to mean just about any game that has any amount of randomness in it. Dead Cells is not a roguelike. Hades is not a roguelike. They are action RPGs more like Diablo. Diablo, by the way, is also not a roguelike. WHAT IS A ROGUELIKE? As the name suggests, it is a game like Rogue. The genre hasn't evolved a better name yet, kind of how first-person shooters were originally called "Doom clones". So what was Rogue like? First and foremost it was a turn-based tactics game, where you had an unbounded amount of time to ponder your next move. It had highly randomized content, you'd have to make do with what you found. It was a dungeon crawling, exploration, turn-based tactical combat game with permadeath and no persistence of progression. You lose, you start all over. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)

cupofpython 4y ago
I was going off of how the rogue-like tag is currently used in game marketplaces, like Steam. You are technically correct, I learned something new, and I updated - but as far as seeing the phrase in the wild and trying to predict what to expect, my comment stands. Hades and Dead Cells are certainly not like diablo. the core game loop is to lose and try again, not build up a strong character over the course of a single playthrough as is typically expected of action-rpgs. It seems like the definition of rogue-like has expanded due to popularity of the genre (as things do) and you have a purist attitude that rejects the new compromises. Rather than create contention over something you cant control, it might be better to highlight permadeath and no persistence as a subtype of rogue-likes for which the original game falls under. And yes, it probably does need a better general-purpose name but unfortunately the thing it describes is rather abstract so idk what a concise self-evident phrase could be for it
- remram 4y ago
  Most games labelled as rogue-like on Steam do not feature a persistent progression. Examples are Slay the Spire and Spelunky. Saying that it's a feature of the genre is definitely wrong.
  - cupofpython 4y ago
    >Saying that it's a feature of the genre is definitely wrong. good thing I am not saying that then The point is that if you see "roguelike" then those features could be there, not that they necessarily will be there. We are talking about a genre, which is a pretty general thing An FPS could have grenades, but it might not. And including grenades does not suddenly mean it is no longer an FPS. Steam does list Dead Cells as both a roguelike and a roguelite. So yeah, you literally will find these features in this genre.
    - remram 4y ago
      This is your characterization: > each "run" or playthrough you change the game state somehow (varies by game) so that the next run is easier / you have more in-game options for progression. You didn't say they could have that, you said they did. You can change your comment in a way that it would be correct, yes. I could describe dogs as "brown animals", then you'd say that's not usually true. I could reply that some modern dogs are brown now so I'm not always wrong, but describing dogs as "brown animals" is definitely an incorrect definition.