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Not sure I understand the concern about access from “modern embedded devices”. Something like a Raspberry Pi, or really anything with a decent ARM processor, ca

Not sure I understand the concern about access from “modern embedded devices”. Something like a Raspberry Pi, or really anything with a decent ARM processor, can easily handle TLS.

eternityforest 4y ago
It is a potential point of failure though, you normally need persistent storage or ramdisk tricks to keep the certs up to date.
shakna 4y ago
TLS can be handled by much, much small devices, too! Most of the cheap Xtensa line of things, like the ESP can handle decoding TLS [0]. [0] https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-idf/en/latest/esp32/api-reference/protocols/esp_tls.html https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-idf/en/latest/esp32/...
- 13security 4y ago
  The problem is in supplying the CA certificate(s) used to verify the web-of-trust. Web browsers are pre-loaded with a huge number of trusted CA certificates. Pre-loading and maintaining that list on an embedded microcontroller is non-trivial. Not to mention what happens when a CA root is compromised or goes rogue, you have to deal with the revocation process. Your link mentions global_ca_store but provides no guidance on how to effectively populate it. That's the problem. Interestingly, providing a non-Tivo-ized system, e.g. one that allows connection to an arbitrary cloud server, requires even more work than just hardcoding in "your" CA certificates. None of this is insurmountable, but it leaves devs pining for a pre-HTTPS world where you can just do a DNS lookup and send "GET / HTTP/1.0" and not have to worry about all the attack vectors that HTTPS protects against, as well as the ones that HTTPS opens you up to.
astrobe_ 4y ago
The word "modern" in the phrase is dumb -- as usual with the word modern; it's on of those word that convey no real meaning most of the times. It's not about modern, it's about power. Current 32bits SoCs prolly sale for the same price as 16bits systems of a decade ago, so yes, they probably can handle HTTP. However, 8 and 16 bits microcontrollers with only a few kb of RAM/Flash are still made ("modernly"), sold and used - and those cannot handle HTTPS.
- jbotdev 4y ago
  You would definitely have trouble on an 8-bit micro, but I wouldn’t expect to browse a “personal website” with one of those, which is what the article seems to focus on. Maybe a “personal HTTP API” at best.

Not sure I understand the concern about access from “modern embedded devices”. Something like a Raspberry Pi, or really anything with a decent ARM processor, can easily handle TLS.

eternityforest 4y ago

It is a potential point of failure though, you normally need persistent storage or ramdisk tricks to keep the certs up to date.

shakna 4y ago

TLS can be handled by much, much small devices, too! Most of the cheap Xtensa line of things, like the ESP can handle decoding TLS [0]. [0] https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-idf/en/latest/esp32/api-reference/protocols/esp_tls.html https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-idf/en/latest/esp32/...

13security 4y ago
The problem is in supplying the CA certificate(s) used to verify the web-of-trust. Web browsers are pre-loaded with a huge number of trusted CA certificates. Pre-loading and maintaining that list on an embedded microcontroller is non-trivial. Not to mention what happens when a CA root is compromised or goes rogue, you have to deal with the revocation process. Your link mentions global_ca_store but provides no guidance on how to effectively populate it. That's the problem. Interestingly, providing a non-Tivo-ized system, e.g. one that allows connection to an arbitrary cloud server, requires even more work than just hardcoding in "your" CA certificates. None of this is insurmountable, but it leaves devs pining for a pre-HTTPS world where you can just do a DNS lookup and send "GET / HTTP/1.0" and not have to worry about all the attack vectors that HTTPS protects against, as well as the ones that HTTPS opens you up to.

astrobe_ 4y ago

The word "modern" in the phrase is dumb -- as usual with the word modern; it's on of those word that convey no real meaning most of the times. It's not about modern, it's about power. Current 32bits SoCs prolly sale for the same price as 16bits systems of a decade ago, so yes, they probably can handle HTTP. However, 8 and 16 bits microcontrollers with only a few kb of RAM/Flash are still made ("modernly"), sold and used - and those cannot handle HTTPS.

jbotdev 4y ago
You would definitely have trouble on an 8-bit micro, but I wouldn’t expect to browse a “personal website” with one of those, which is what the article seems to focus on. Maybe a “personal HTTP API” at best.