5 ms·

I know both Lisp and Haskell, and I'm pretty sure that Haskell for most people is much harder to learn. The two biggest stumbling blocks people encounter when

by shankys 18y ago

I know both Lisp and Haskell, and I'm pretty sure that Haskell for most people is much harder to learn. The two biggest stumbling blocks people encounter when learning Haskell are monads and the (powerful but complex) type system.

silentbicycle 18y ago
In my experience, learning OCaml is a good way to become accustomed to the type system Haskell uses without having to also learn how to do everything with functional purity at the same time. The type systems are very similar, though Haskell has type classes and OCaml has a much more elaborate module system.
- whacked_new 18y ago
  Interesting ideas. I can't imagine myself using them for serious work, but am interested in learning these languages for mental exercise (ref http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=112196 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=112196). I attempted nostrademon's Haskell tutorial but had a hard time making sense of things and so forgetting was a problem. Moreso when you don't really spend time poking around for its own sake. Would either of you recommend OCaml as a gentle lead-in to Haskell, so things can be more easily remembered? I was offered a good book in ML, but I have even less idea of where that would fit.
  - silentbicycle 18y ago
    I'd recommend OCaml over Haskell for real use, actually. Where Haskell is experimental ("[...] Haskell has a sort of unofficial slogan: avoid success at all costs." -Simon Peyton-Jones, http://www.techworld.com.au/article/261007/-z_programming_languages_haskell?pp=10 http://www.techworld.com.au/article/261007/-z_programming_la...), OCaml is intended to be a practical multi-paradigm language, building on new ideas from SML. It has some faults (it's somewhat painful until you understand the type system, and the language seems to be all but designed to give a terrible first impression), but it's a very powerful language. It's not good as a glue language, but for stuff involving heavy numeric processing or complex data structures (e.g. compilers) it really shines. I think it's an excellent complement to Python. IMHO, the best English-language book on OCaml is _Developing Applications with Objective CAML_, a French O'Reilly book. There's a free, complete translation available online (http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/oreilly-book/ http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/oreilly-book/). I haven't read _OCaml for Scientists_, and I found _Practical OCaml_ by Joshua Smith to be a huge disappointment, FWIW. _The Little MLer_ is a pretty good book on ML's type system. If memory serves, everything but the last chapter would also apply to to Haskell, though you'll have to transliterate syntax. Haskell is a really fun and mind-blowing language, and it will teach you a lot, but I haven't found it to be a practical language. (To be fair, you might feel otherwise. This book looks quite good: http://book.realworldhaskell.org/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/) You could probably get a lot out of see-sawing back and forth between Haskell and OCaml, switching when you get stuck with one or the other. They have a lot of common concepts, but they take them in different directions.
    - iman 18y ago
      I disagree completely. It is true that a few years ago, OCaml was more "practical" then haskell. It was faster and had more libraries. But today haskell is superior to OCaml in nearly all aspects. As a language, haskell has always been cleaner and more elegant. It has simpler syntax, a more powerful type system, lazy evaluation, and in general more features. In terms of performance, haskell has caught up with OCaml and exceeded it. The leading haskell compiler(GHC) has been adding in optimizations one after another the past few years. Deforestation, pointer tagging, parallel garbage collection, and other techniques from various research papers. GHC is a top quality professional compiler built by a bunch of geniuses. Haskell also has several implementations and compilers(GHC, Hugs, yhc, nhc, jhc...) while OCaml has only a single implementation. In terms of tool support, haskell has a debugger(ghci debugger), a profiler(ghc) an excellent documentation generation tool(haddock), and a standard build system(cabal). These are all superior to their OCaml equivalents(where they exist at all: OCaml build systems usually are a mess of makefiles or autohell) Haskell is catching up to OCaml in the number of libraries available. Haskell now has a CPAN-like website called hackage with hundreds of libraries for all application domains (see the list: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html ). Libraries can be downloaded and installed with haskell's build system using a single command, with dependencies also automatically taken care of. The haskell standard library is also a lot better then OCaml's. OCaml has two different incompatible list types(one lazy and one strict). OCaml's file handles can be either written to or read from, not both. (It's not possible to open a file for RW in OCaml). And OCaml infamously requires special syntax for doing arithmatic with floating point numbers(1 + 2 for integer, 3.0 +. 4.0 for floating point). In terms of community I think that both languages are about equal. Haskell has active and beginner-helpful mailing lists and an IRC channel (one of freenode's most crowded). Overall, I believe that Haskell is more "practical" then OCaml in nearly every domain. The only thing where OCaml might be preferable is high performance numeric stuff. But this might not be the case for much longer when the haskell GHC compiler will soon get it's new native code generator. Haskell popularity has been exploding in the past few years, with tons of new libraries and books. There have always been myths about haskell that have caused it to have a perception of being impractical, kind of similar to lisp. But the truth is that haskell is a practical language, and depending on what you need to do, it can even compete with other practical languages like java and python.
- chollida1 18y ago
  > In my experience, learning OCaml is a good way to become accustomed to the type system Haskell uses I'd agree with this. In addition I'd recommend "The Little MLer" as a great book on how to think in terms of types. edit. didn't read further down. Seems as if it is already mentioned:)
  - silentbicycle 18y ago
    Definitely. I'd recommend the book even if you don't use OCaml or Haskell, really; it made me a lot more conscious of how types can help think out a problem. It's one more technique for your conceptual toolbox. It's also a fairly fast read. It's in the same format as _The Little Schemer_, FWIW.
eru 18y ago
Try call/cc when you want a challenge with Lisp (i.e. Scheme).

by shankys 18y ago

silentbicycle 18y ago

In my experience, learning OCaml is a good way to become accustomed to the type system Haskell uses without having to also learn how to do everything with functional purity at the same time. The type systems are very similar, though Haskell has type classes and OCaml has a much more elaborate module system.

whacked_new 18y ago
Interesting ideas. I can't imagine myself using them for serious work, but am interested in learning these languages for mental exercise (ref http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=112196 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=112196). I attempted nostrademon's Haskell tutorial but had a hard time making sense of things and so forgetting was a problem. Moreso when you don't really spend time poking around for its own sake. Would either of you recommend OCaml as a gentle lead-in to Haskell, so things can be more easily remembered? I was offered a good book in ML, but I have even less idea of where that would fit.
- silentbicycle 18y ago
  I'd recommend OCaml over Haskell for real use, actually. Where Haskell is experimental ("[...] Haskell has a sort of unofficial slogan: avoid success at all costs." -Simon Peyton-Jones, http://www.techworld.com.au/article/261007/-z_programming_languages_haskell?pp=10 http://www.techworld.com.au/article/261007/-z_programming_la...), OCaml is intended to be a practical multi-paradigm language, building on new ideas from SML. It has some faults (it's somewhat painful until you understand the type system, and the language seems to be all but designed to give a terrible first impression), but it's a very powerful language. It's not good as a glue language, but for stuff involving heavy numeric processing or complex data structures (e.g. compilers) it really shines. I think it's an excellent complement to Python. IMHO, the best English-language book on OCaml is _Developing Applications with Objective CAML_, a French O'Reilly book. There's a free, complete translation available online (http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/oreilly-book/ http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/oreilly-book/). I haven't read _OCaml for Scientists_, and I found _Practical OCaml_ by Joshua Smith to be a huge disappointment, FWIW. _The Little MLer_ is a pretty good book on ML's type system. If memory serves, everything but the last chapter would also apply to to Haskell, though you'll have to transliterate syntax. Haskell is a really fun and mind-blowing language, and it will teach you a lot, but I haven't found it to be a practical language. (To be fair, you might feel otherwise. This book looks quite good: http://book.realworldhaskell.org/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/) You could probably get a lot out of see-sawing back and forth between Haskell and OCaml, switching when you get stuck with one or the other. They have a lot of common concepts, but they take them in different directions.
  - iman 18y ago
    I disagree completely. It is true that a few years ago, OCaml was more "practical" then haskell. It was faster and had more libraries. But today haskell is superior to OCaml in nearly all aspects. As a language, haskell has always been cleaner and more elegant. It has simpler syntax, a more powerful type system, lazy evaluation, and in general more features. In terms of performance, haskell has caught up with OCaml and exceeded it. The leading haskell compiler(GHC) has been adding in optimizations one after another the past few years. Deforestation, pointer tagging, parallel garbage collection, and other techniques from various research papers. GHC is a top quality professional compiler built by a bunch of geniuses. Haskell also has several implementations and compilers(GHC, Hugs, yhc, nhc, jhc...) while OCaml has only a single implementation. In terms of tool support, haskell has a debugger(ghci debugger), a profiler(ghc) an excellent documentation generation tool(haddock), and a standard build system(cabal). These are all superior to their OCaml equivalents(where they exist at all: OCaml build systems usually are a mess of makefiles or autohell) Haskell is catching up to OCaml in the number of libraries available. Haskell now has a CPAN-like website called hackage with hundreds of libraries for all application domains (see the list: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html ). Libraries can be downloaded and installed with haskell's build system using a single command, with dependencies also automatically taken care of. The haskell standard library is also a lot better then OCaml's. OCaml has two different incompatible list types(one lazy and one strict). OCaml's file handles can be either written to or read from, not both. (It's not possible to open a file for RW in OCaml). And OCaml infamously requires special syntax for doing arithmatic with floating point numbers(1 + 2 for integer, 3.0 +. 4.0 for floating point). In terms of community I think that both languages are about equal. Haskell has active and beginner-helpful mailing lists and an IRC channel (one of freenode's most crowded). Overall, I believe that Haskell is more "practical" then OCaml in nearly every domain. The only thing where OCaml might be preferable is high performance numeric stuff. But this might not be the case for much longer when the haskell GHC compiler will soon get it's new native code generator. Haskell popularity has been exploding in the past few years, with tons of new libraries and books. There have always been myths about haskell that have caused it to have a perception of being impractical, kind of similar to lisp. But the truth is that haskell is a practical language, and depending on what you need to do, it can even compete with other practical languages like java and python.
chollida1 18y ago
> In my experience, learning OCaml is a good way to become accustomed to the type system Haskell uses I'd agree with this. In addition I'd recommend "The Little MLer" as a great book on how to think in terms of types. edit. didn't read further down. Seems as if it is already mentioned:)
- silentbicycle 18y ago
  Definitely. I'd recommend the book even if you don't use OCaml or Haskell, really; it made me a lot more conscious of how types can help think out a problem. It's one more technique for your conceptual toolbox. It's also a fairly fast read. It's in the same format as _The Little Schemer_, FWIW.

eru 18y ago

Try call/cc when you want a challenge with Lisp (i.e. Scheme).