8 ms·

BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

186 points by VeXocide 4y ago

h2odragon 4y ago
Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins. I'd be leery of using this device, with all that complexity, as an input for video games. The latency makes me ugh. Certainly don't want that much "systems" stuff between me and the transmission of a car I'm piloting.
- mike_pol 4y ago
  I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. The latency you mention is really not there. Admittedly I could not service it if it broke but aren’t cars consumables now?
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables?! > I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      > Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience. I learned to drive in manuals (because they're more common in the UK). I currently own two automatics and drive a variety of manuals, automatics and EVs that are kind of inherently "automatic". I don't see any difference in "driving experience" between manual and automatic. What do *you* think the difference is?
      - jjtheblunt 4y ago
        Not what you were thinking, I guess, but I push-started my manual Saab and Honda many times, could my manual Mercedes but never needed to, which you can't do with an automatic.
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        You can if you get them moving fast enough, but it's terrible for the gearbox.
        jjtheblunt 4y ago
        that would require some fast running while holding the door and steering wheel!
    - CraigJPerry 4y ago
      >> A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience. Which cars have those today or in the time-frame of the F-series BMWs from TFA? Every fiat/chrysler gearbox is sloppy gooey junk thing, even their performance models have horrific manual gear shifts. I'll cut to the chase instead of listing Ford, Peugeot, etc. etc. The Porsche Cayman 982 manual shift feels awesome to use, it's a delight but that only opens up a new can of worms, the gear ratios are farrr too long (emissions targets i suppose), utterly ruining the experience. The PDK is the better choice (and it even has shorter ratios to boot!).
      - foobarian 4y ago
        I'm not a car nerd by far, and I never drove a manual shift before my Focus ST, but I am completely in love with it. I'm heartbroken that Ford stopped manufacturing those models. Edit: Reflecting more on what I like about it. I saw a number of articles or videos, like that 80s Porsche, where the shifter is wiggly or won't go into gear because of long linkages, or falls out of gear. The Ford shifter is nothing like it. My favorite thing about it is that there seems to be (maybe) some torque-induced flex between the gearbox and shifter that makes it naturally slide and "fall" into the correct next gear; I absolutely love this feeling. You just push the stick and it falls from 2nd to 3rd, for example. But if you're slowing down it feels like it's harder to put into 3rd but more easy to push it back up into 1st. And then the way the reverse gear is protected with a hefty spring-loaded ring is very nice. Finally, overall the shifter works smoothly, never gets stuck, seems to "know" the gear I want to go into, never falls out of gear... just lovely :-)
        tmh88j 4y ago
        > The Ford shifter is nothing like it. My favorite thing about it is that there seems to be (maybe) some torque-induced flex between the gearbox and shifter that makes it naturally slide and "fall" into the correct next gear I also have an ST. I highly suggest replacing the shifter with an aftermarket short throw shifter or the shifter bracket. I think you'll like it even more. I've owned several cars with manual transmissions, and one of my biggest complaints about the ST was the stock shifter. It doesn't struggle to get into gear, but it felt light, soft and mushy compared to my other cars. I replaced mine with a short throw from Steeda and it helped a lot, but still lacks the solid bolt-action rifle feeling I was used to. The ST is a killer deal with serious performance for its price, but if you want a taste for what else is affordable out there and a step up try out a car with a Tremec TR6060 transmission[1]. They are one of the best manual transmissions on the market today and can take a beating. You should easily be able to find one on Turo if you live near any major city. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremec_TR-6060_transmission#Applications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremec_TR-6060_transmission#Ap...
    - gambiting 4y ago
      >>Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience. Yeah, no thanks. A good dual clutch automatic is my choice when it comes to actually driving in a sprited way. But you know what? To each their own.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - bonestamp2 4y ago
      > In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables? I don't think consumable is the right word, but I assume they meant in the sense that many cars are leased, so the drive never really owns a car -- they just "consume" cars as they move from lease to lease.
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    > aren’t cars consumables now? Maybe if you're in the earning high-5 figures a year bracket in SF, but for regular people, a car is likely the most or second most expensive thing they own (second to a home). New cars is something for dual-earners and rich folk, for us regular people - and I am a high income earner - new cars, even on finance, is just not an option. (I'm currently driving a used 2009 Ford Focus, <200K Km on the dial)
    - davchana 4y ago
      & to add, some of us rent home, so the car is literally anything where we have some equity (& rest the bank owns).
    - krallja 4y ago
      > high-5 figures a year bracket in SF Lower class?
- speedgoose 4y ago
  Does your car use electronic injection or a carburettor?
  - h2odragon 4y ago
    Injection, so yes; there's still more fly by wire than i like.
- wolrah 4y ago
  > Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins. If it's a manual transmission or an ancient automatic, sure, but manual transmission trucks basically haven't existed for a decade or so and every automatic since the mid 90s has an electronic gear selector of some variety. Somehow the world keeps working just fine. The biggest problem that's come up with them has been when manufacturers decide to screw with the physical interface and make it more likely to inadvertently miss Park, like the Chrysler design that killed Anton Yelchin. > I'd be leery of using this device, with all that complexity, as an input for video games. It's less complicated than a force feedback joystick or even a lot of modern gamepads. > The latency makes me ugh. The latency is coming from the transmission, not the shifter. > Certainly don't want that much "systems" stuff between me and the transmission of a car I'm piloting. Again, it has been this way for literally decades. My 1993 Crown Vic with an AODE transmission had a shift lever based on the computer interpreting ranges of resistance from a potentiometer. The lever was literally a joystick with notches. And as the name suggests, that was a classic AOD transmission with the mechanical valvebody replaced with solenoids and an IBM PC grade processor.
  - analog31 4y ago
    Amusingly, I discovered that my Toyota Sienna had electronic transmission control when I was downshifting on a mountain descent, and absent-mindedly threw it into reverse. I'm still alive.
  - h2odragon 4y ago
    Mine is the last manual v8 Dodge dakota sold, possibly the last made. 230k miles and still have a sliver of the original clutch.
    - Hellbanevil 4y ago
  - asciimike 4y ago
    2021 Tacoma Manual owner here (one of the reasons I got it). Gladiators and Broncos are also available with a manual!
- themitigating 4y ago
  The latency for doing what? Shifting from reverse to drive? The ZF transmissions in BMWs are very fast shifting even though they are torque converters and there are paddle shifters on the wheel.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    ZF 4HP22 in my older (4.0 litre) Range Rover, 4HP24 in my newer one with the 4.6 engine. Actually they're both the same age to within weeks, I just got the 4.6 eight years after the 4.0, but anyway - it takes about a quarter of a second to change up or down if you manually prod the gearstick coming up to some bends. It's definitely faster than the R380 manual gearboxes fitted to Discos, Defenders and manual P38s, which needs a fair bit of time in neutral to settle out before you select the next gear. This is '80s technology, mind you, with a fairly simple computer grafted on to bring it up to the white heat of the mid-'90s.
    - timc3 4y ago
      The BMW ZF is much faster. They are even using it in their M cars.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  A bit of gear shift latency just makes it all the more realistic!
hatware 4y ago
Neat how modern car systems turned into microservices.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  I kinda wish, as it stands it feels like decades of different protocols and technologies awkwardly stitched together. In theory everything would be connected on a central bus to a centralized RTOS computer able to read every sensor and adjust everything that needs it 1000x a second (or more), so that anyone could easily hook up a new device or software and subscribe to an event bus, but alas.
  - replygirl 4y ago
    isn't that just the can bus?
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Mostly every component on modern cars uses the CAN bus for communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus Many third party companies have made accessories to read information or control devices using it. Cars also have a standard diagnostic port called the OBD2 which you can purchase $10 readers that use bluetooth with your phone. Cars may have much more electronics but with all the sensors it's very easy to know what part of the system is broken. For example on my mom's 2011 Honda Civic (about 100k miles) her check engine light came on. I read the codes and it was the transmission pressure switch. I purchased one for about $30, replaced it, and everything is running fine. As to all these new electronic systems and their value: A 1964 Pontiac Tempest GTI has a 6.4 liter v8 engine that makes 348hp[1]. It goes from 0 to 60 in 4.6 seconds and does the 1/4 mile in 13.1 seconds. It gets 11mpg~ A 2022 Volkswagen Golf R has a 2.0 liter i4 engine that makes 315hp. It goes from 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds and does the 1/4 mile in 12.5 seconds. It gets 23mpg[2] (26city 30hwy). It also has all modern emissions requirements. [1]HP numbers were overrated pre 1990s because manufactures would remove accessories during testing. [2]They changed how cars were rated in the 2000s so the 23mpg would be higher if rated back in 1964
asciimike 4y ago
I've spent quite a bit of time hacking my own F-Series BMW, and I can confirm it's a _huge_ pain in the ass, mostly because there is basically zero documentation on how to do it. IMO BMW also occasionally makes some bizarre engineering decisions, for instance, connect one long wire from an internal switch console to the DME unit (engine controller) rather than connect directly to an adjacent CANBUS that already went there. German engineering ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I've found the following tools helpful: - newtis.info (has literally all the wiring diagrams as well as a bunch of info on how systems are built and work together, though unfortunately the protocols aren't documented) - Esys (be able to flash new firmware to a control unit or modify settings within a control unit, plus it often contains helpful comments in a mix of English and German that explain what the various acronyms are) - German and American BMW forums (bimmerpost, 1erforum.de); aided of course by a lot of German <> English Google translate
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  Exactly. It's one thing to "do it right" but all the people who are hurring and durring about how every car has technology are forgetting that ze germans in their pursuit of ze perfect driving machine often don't "do it right" and unless you get lucky and own something a lot of enthusiasts own and have had time to fiddle with and document you're often on your own. The Americans and Japanese tend to be better because they tend to design things to be more tolerant of being used in a way other than the factory way but still the knowledge and skill barrier to entry is high and you still come across plenty of stuff that just won't cooperate unless you exactly replicate the OEM conditions.
  - aeyes 4y ago
    When any company designs the electronics for a new car, they don't start on a clean sheet of paper. Existing designs are reused and adapted. Additional complexity is introduced because some of the electronics are from third parties, for example this Gear Selector is interfacing with a Bosch transmission controller which controls a ZF transmission.
  - CraigJPerry 4y ago
    I’d go along with that - the first time i saw the rear suspension on a mazda rx8 - it looked so familiar, a multi-link style setup with the same core components of a contemporary BMW E38 or E39. One key difference - you can access all the bolts on the Mazda. Replacing rear shocks was a doddle, i’d done the same job on my old e38 and that was multiple days thanks to combining rust with awkward UX. The mazda had the same rust but was easy and safe enough to access with some heat and no need for universal joints which are never great when you’re using an impact driver.
spaceywilly 4y ago
This makes me realize how easy it would be to hack a car like this. All you would need to do is sneak into the car and plug in a low profile OBD reader-like device with a cellular modem, and you could send these messages from anywhere. Just with the information in these articles we now know how to spoof the shifter mechanism, I’m sure similar processes could be used to determine steering and throttle controls. All these Hollywood plot lines and conspiracy theories suddenly don’t seem so far fetched.
- neuralRiot 4y ago
  I’m not sure with what purpose would anyone do that. Tracking? Assassination? Stealing? There’s simpler an more effective methods for any of that.
- potatochup 4y ago
  Usually there is a whitelisted set of messages available through the OBD port, it doesn't give you unfettered access to the CAN bus.
  - tjoff 4y ago
    Enough for https://comma.ai/ https://comma.ai/ to work so can't be that restricted? Edit: thanks to responders, I misremembered how it worked.
    - bri3d 4y ago
      Comma.ai plugs into the vehicle's "backing" CAN busses (Powertrain, Sensors, infotainment, etc.) behind the Gateway, not the OBD port. This requires the removal of at least a few trim pieces and connectors. For example, the Giraffe module taps in at the high-mounted camera module on many cars, requiring the removal of ceiling trim and the installation of a custom connector / tap onto the CAN bus.
    - jaywalk 4y ago
      Look at the installation procedure for that device. It requires removing the rearview mirror and plugging the device into the existing camera's wiring harness. It's not controlling anything via the OBD-C port.
londons_explore 4y ago
Hooking it up to a real car and sniffing the message bus where it connects would be by far the easiest approach to this... Then you don't even need to understand all the messages - just replay what the car sends and figure out which byte in the response is the current gear. You probably wouldn't even need to figure out the checksums!
- Rychard 4y ago
  The messages include an incrementing counter ID, which has to be accounted for when calculating the checksum. The purpose of this is specifically to prevent "replay attacks". If the counter doesn't increment on subsequent messages, it raises an error. If you increment the counter but do not recalculate the checksum, it raises an error.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    The counter is only one byte though - record 256 messages and you have the whole set. No need to understand the protocol or anything - just record a few minutes of data, find when a message repeats (indicating whatever counter mechanism is in use has rolled over), and replay that loop repeatedly. The only time this technique doesn't work is when a challenge-response algorithm is in use, but car stuff doesn't tend to do that except for some lock/security/firmware update type functionality.
phkahler 4y ago
A lot of the complexity here is because the gear selector is considered a safety-critical part. They may also consider LED indicators on it as safety-critical information to the driver. Those two things - is the transmission receiving the real intent of the driver, and is the driver being told the actual state of the system - are just the top level. Security is also starting to be a concern, though I think there is room for debate about how far they need to go with that. It's common to have all drivetrain components on a dedicated CAN bus with a gateway between it and other stuff. Your infotainment system is not going to put the car in Park regardless of what you run on it.
- rconti 4y ago
  Yup. Bad Things can happen: https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/20/autos/jeep-recall-anton-yelchin/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/20/autos/jeep-recall-anton-yel... I absolutely hate stateless switches on automotive stuff. Why can't I tell that my turn signal is on by 'feel'? Why do I have to rely on a (too quiet) clicking, or a (too hidden) indicator light? I have an E70 X5 with the "new style" transmission selector, as well as a Tesla 3 that replicates it on the right side of the column. Thankfully most cars seem to have stuck with the "forward = reverse", "Back=drive" convention; confusing as it sounds, at least it replicates a move from neutral on an automatic with a traditional PRNDL lever. Both cars also have stateless signals. The E90 and newer BMWs seem to have indicator clicks that are almost inaudible, and in almost every car I drive, the indicator lights are hidden behind the steering wheel, so you never know if the indicator has cancelled or not. On my "bad old world" BMW, at least you can feel the lever click down when it cancels. The Tesla also has a stateless signal switch, but it doesn't give me the same issues. I think the audible "click" is a lot more distinctive or something. Alas, the green flashy light is way over in the middle of the car instead of conveniently hidden behind the rim of the steering wheel.
  - smilekzs 4y ago
    Fortunately, G20 onwards have returned to a mechanically latching turning signal stalk design. Unfortunately, ZN8/ZD8 Toyota GR86 / Subaru BRZ (the new ones!) have regressed to the dreaded mechanically momentary (non-latching) turning signal stalk design.
quarantaseih 4y ago
Im currently renting a BMW with this gear selector. In fairness, I throughly hate the car (an X1). Terrible lag, awful throttle response, terrible steering, unpredictable brakes, etc. But the two candidates for worst feature of the car are 1. The gear selector 2. The indicator lights Every time I have to engage one of the two I let out a little curse. I driven stick shifts, autos, rear wheel drive cars, trucks, front wheel drive cars, uHaul trucks, and manual motorcycles. Ive off-roaded in CA, driven through blizzards, Mediterranean traffic. This is by far my most hated driving experience.
- simondotau 4y ago
  Pretty much everything you’ve said is the exact opposite of my experience (BMW 1-series F20 125i). Great throttle response, minimal turbo lag, precise steering, and highly controllable confidence inspiring brakes. I can see why someone might not like the shifter and indicator stalk, but they simply haven’t been an issue for me. In fact there’s aspects of them which I prefer.
  - sgt 4y ago
    Maybe throttle response/automatic transmission/turbo lag isn't completely predictable across the same models? That would be disturbing. I know that for example turbodiesels (even newish ones) start off pretty snappy but then turbo lag and other lags creep in.
  - smilekzs 4y ago
    I have driven the X1 and various other BMWs. The X1 is indeed horrible, and there is a reason: For handling / lateral dynamics: The X1 is derived from essentially a MINI platform which is FWD-based (transverse engine), compared to the rest of the BMW lineup which is RWD-based (longitudinal engine). For power / longitudinal dynamics: If GP happened to be driving a 3-cylinder, then of course the turbo lag would be high. OTOH, the 4-cylinder B48 is a venerable engine with negligible lag (again used all across the BMW lineup).
    - quarantaseih 4y ago
dang 4y ago
Recent and related: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part One: Failures - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31883951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31883951 - June 2022 (87 comments)
harryha11er 4y ago
German here: Startled by your use of the word "Gangwahlschalter" (I had never heard the word before) I did a quick google search and apparently there is a German Dictionary company that actually tracks use of words and its synonyms. A query to their database confirmed my intuition that "Schalthebel" would be the word people would use. (src: https://www.dwds.de/r/plot/?view=1&corpus=zeitungenxl&norm=date%2Bclass&smooth=spline&genres=0&grand=1&slice=1&prune=0&window=3&wbase=0&logavg=0&logscale=0&xrange=1946%3A2022&q1=Gangwahlschalter&q2=Schalthebel&q3=Schaltkn%C3%BCppel&q4=W%C3%A4hlhebel https://www.dwds.de/r/plot/?view=1&corpus=zeitungenxl&norm=d...)
- smilekzs 4y ago
  On surface this sounds like refrigerator vs fridge ;)

186 points by VeXocide 4y ago

Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins. I'd be leery of using this device, with all that complexity, as an input for video games. The latency makes me ugh. Certainly don't want that much "systems" stuff between me and the transmission of a car I'm piloting.

mike_pol 4y ago
I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. The latency you mention is really not there. Admittedly I could not service it if it broke but aren’t cars consumables now?
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables?! > I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    > Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience. I learned to drive in manuals (because they're more common in the UK). I currently own two automatics and drive a variety of manuals, automatics and EVs that are kind of inherently "automatic". I don't see any difference in "driving experience" between manual and automatic. What do *you* think the difference is?
    - jjtheblunt 4y ago
      Not what you were thinking, I guess, but I push-started my manual Saab and Honda many times, could my manual Mercedes but never needed to, which you can't do with an automatic.
      - Gordonjcp 4y ago
        You can if you get them moving fast enough, but it's terrible for the gearbox.
        jjtheblunt 4y ago
        that would require some fast running while holding the door and steering wheel!
  - CraigJPerry 4y ago
    >> A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience. Which cars have those today or in the time-frame of the F-series BMWs from TFA? Every fiat/chrysler gearbox is sloppy gooey junk thing, even their performance models have horrific manual gear shifts. I'll cut to the chase instead of listing Ford, Peugeot, etc. etc. The Porsche Cayman 982 manual shift feels awesome to use, it's a delight but that only opens up a new can of worms, the gear ratios are farrr too long (emissions targets i suppose), utterly ruining the experience. The PDK is the better choice (and it even has shorter ratios to boot!).
    - foobarian 4y ago
      I'm not a car nerd by far, and I never drove a manual shift before my Focus ST, but I am completely in love with it. I'm heartbroken that Ford stopped manufacturing those models. Edit: Reflecting more on what I like about it. I saw a number of articles or videos, like that 80s Porsche, where the shifter is wiggly or won't go into gear because of long linkages, or falls out of gear. The Ford shifter is nothing like it. My favorite thing about it is that there seems to be (maybe) some torque-induced flex between the gearbox and shifter that makes it naturally slide and "fall" into the correct next gear; I absolutely love this feeling. You just push the stick and it falls from 2nd to 3rd, for example. But if you're slowing down it feels like it's harder to put into 3rd but more easy to push it back up into 1st. And then the way the reverse gear is protected with a hefty spring-loaded ring is very nice. Finally, overall the shifter works smoothly, never gets stuck, seems to "know" the gear I want to go into, never falls out of gear... just lovely :-)
      - tmh88j 4y ago
        > The Ford shifter is nothing like it. My favorite thing about it is that there seems to be (maybe) some torque-induced flex between the gearbox and shifter that makes it naturally slide and "fall" into the correct next gear I also have an ST. I highly suggest replacing the shifter with an aftermarket short throw shifter or the shifter bracket. I think you'll like it even more. I've owned several cars with manual transmissions, and one of my biggest complaints about the ST was the stock shifter. It doesn't struggle to get into gear, but it felt light, soft and mushy compared to my other cars. I replaced mine with a short throw from Steeda and it helped a lot, but still lacks the solid bolt-action rifle feeling I was used to. The ST is a killer deal with serious performance for its price, but if you want a taste for what else is affordable out there and a step up try out a car with a Tremec TR6060 transmission[1]. They are one of the best manual transmissions on the market today and can take a beating. You should easily be able to find one on Turo if you live near any major city. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremec_TR-6060_transmission#Applications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremec_TR-6060_transmission#Ap...
  - gambiting 4y ago
    >>Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience. Yeah, no thanks. A good dual clutch automatic is my choice when it comes to actually driving in a sprited way. But you know what? To each their own.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - bonestamp2 4y ago
    > In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables? I don't think consumable is the right word, but I assume they meant in the sense that many cars are leased, so the drive never really owns a car -- they just "consume" cars as they move from lease to lease.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  > aren’t cars consumables now? Maybe if you're in the earning high-5 figures a year bracket in SF, but for regular people, a car is likely the most or second most expensive thing they own (second to a home). New cars is something for dual-earners and rich folk, for us regular people - and I am a high income earner - new cars, even on finance, is just not an option. (I'm currently driving a used 2009 Ford Focus, <200K Km on the dial)
  - davchana 4y ago
    & to add, some of us rent home, so the car is literally anything where we have some equity (& rest the bank owns).
  - krallja 4y ago
    > high-5 figures a year bracket in SF Lower class?
speedgoose 4y ago
Does your car use electronic injection or a carburettor?
- h2odragon 4y ago
  Injection, so yes; there's still more fly by wire than i like.
wolrah 4y ago
> Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins. If it's a manual transmission or an ancient automatic, sure, but manual transmission trucks basically haven't existed for a decade or so and every automatic since the mid 90s has an electronic gear selector of some variety. Somehow the world keeps working just fine. The biggest problem that's come up with them has been when manufacturers decide to screw with the physical interface and make it more likely to inadvertently miss Park, like the Chrysler design that killed Anton Yelchin. > I'd be leery of using this device, with all that complexity, as an input for video games. It's less complicated than a force feedback joystick or even a lot of modern gamepads. > The latency makes me ugh. The latency is coming from the transmission, not the shifter. > Certainly don't want that much "systems" stuff between me and the transmission of a car I'm piloting. Again, it has been this way for literally decades. My 1993 Crown Vic with an AODE transmission had a shift lever based on the computer interpreting ranges of resistance from a potentiometer. The lever was literally a joystick with notches. And as the name suggests, that was a classic AOD transmission with the mechanical valvebody replaced with solenoids and an IBM PC grade processor.
- analog31 4y ago
  Amusingly, I discovered that my Toyota Sienna had electronic transmission control when I was downshifting on a mountain descent, and absent-mindedly threw it into reverse. I'm still alive.
- h2odragon 4y ago
  Mine is the last manual v8 Dodge dakota sold, possibly the last made. 230k miles and still have a sliver of the original clutch.
  - Hellbanevil 4y ago
- asciimike 4y ago
  2021 Tacoma Manual owner here (one of the reasons I got it). Gladiators and Broncos are also available with a manual!
themitigating 4y ago
The latency for doing what? Shifting from reverse to drive? The ZF transmissions in BMWs are very fast shifting even though they are torque converters and there are paddle shifters on the wheel.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  ZF 4HP22 in my older (4.0 litre) Range Rover, 4HP24 in my newer one with the 4.6 engine. Actually they're both the same age to within weeks, I just got the 4.6 eight years after the 4.0, but anyway - it takes about a quarter of a second to change up or down if you manually prod the gearstick coming up to some bends. It's definitely faster than the R380 manual gearboxes fitted to Discos, Defenders and manual P38s, which needs a fair bit of time in neutral to settle out before you select the next gear. This is '80s technology, mind you, with a fairly simple computer grafted on to bring it up to the white heat of the mid-'90s.
  - timc3 4y ago
    The BMW ZF is much faster. They are even using it in their M cars.
londons_explore 4y ago
A bit of gear shift latency just makes it all the more realistic!

hatware 4y ago

Neat how modern car systems turned into microservices.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago
I kinda wish, as it stands it feels like decades of different protocols and technologies awkwardly stitched together. In theory everything would be connected on a central bus to a centralized RTOS computer able to read every sensor and adjust everything that needs it 1000x a second (or more), so that anyone could easily hook up a new device or software and subscribe to an event bus, but alas.
- replygirl 4y ago
  isn't that just the can bus?
- themitigating 4y ago
  Mostly every component on modern cars uses the CAN bus for communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus Many third party companies have made accessories to read information or control devices using it. Cars also have a standard diagnostic port called the OBD2 which you can purchase $10 readers that use bluetooth with your phone. Cars may have much more electronics but with all the sensors it's very easy to know what part of the system is broken. For example on my mom's 2011 Honda Civic (about 100k miles) her check engine light came on. I read the codes and it was the transmission pressure switch. I purchased one for about $30, replaced it, and everything is running fine. As to all these new electronic systems and their value: A 1964 Pontiac Tempest GTI has a 6.4 liter v8 engine that makes 348hp[1]. It goes from 0 to 60 in 4.6 seconds and does the 1/4 mile in 13.1 seconds. It gets 11mpg~ A 2022 Volkswagen Golf R has a 2.0 liter i4 engine that makes 315hp. It goes from 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds and does the 1/4 mile in 12.5 seconds. It gets 23mpg[2] (26city 30hwy). It also has all modern emissions requirements. [1]HP numbers were overrated pre 1990s because manufactures would remove accessories during testing. [2]They changed how cars were rated in the 2000s so the 23mpg would be higher if rated back in 1964

asciimike 4y ago

I've spent quite a bit of time hacking my own F-Series BMW, and I can confirm it's a _huge_ pain in the ass, mostly because there is basically zero documentation on how to do it. IMO BMW also occasionally makes some bizarre engineering decisions, for instance, connect one long wire from an internal switch console to the DME unit (engine controller) rather than connect directly to an adjacent CANBUS that already went there. German engineering ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I've found the following tools helpful: - newtis.info (has literally all the wiring diagrams as well as a bunch of info on how systems are built and work together, though unfortunately the protocols aren't documented) - Esys (be able to flash new firmware to a control unit or modify settings within a control unit, plus it often contains helpful comments in a mix of English and German that explain what the various acronyms are) - German and American BMW forums (bimmerpost, 1erforum.de); aided of course by a lot of German <> English Google translate

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Exactly. It's one thing to "do it right" but all the people who are hurring and durring about how every car has technology are forgetting that ze germans in their pursuit of ze perfect driving machine often don't "do it right" and unless you get lucky and own something a lot of enthusiasts own and have had time to fiddle with and document you're often on your own. The Americans and Japanese tend to be better because they tend to design things to be more tolerant of being used in a way other than the factory way but still the knowledge and skill barrier to entry is high and you still come across plenty of stuff that just won't cooperate unless you exactly replicate the OEM conditions.
- aeyes 4y ago
  When any company designs the electronics for a new car, they don't start on a clean sheet of paper. Existing designs are reused and adapted. Additional complexity is introduced because some of the electronics are from third parties, for example this Gear Selector is interfacing with a Bosch transmission controller which controls a ZF transmission.
- CraigJPerry 4y ago
  I’d go along with that - the first time i saw the rear suspension on a mazda rx8 - it looked so familiar, a multi-link style setup with the same core components of a contemporary BMW E38 or E39. One key difference - you can access all the bolts on the Mazda. Replacing rear shocks was a doddle, i’d done the same job on my old e38 and that was multiple days thanks to combining rust with awkward UX. The mazda had the same rust but was easy and safe enough to access with some heat and no need for universal joints which are never great when you’re using an impact driver.

spaceywilly 4y ago

This makes me realize how easy it would be to hack a car like this. All you would need to do is sneak into the car and plug in a low profile OBD reader-like device with a cellular modem, and you could send these messages from anywhere. Just with the information in these articles we now know how to spoof the shifter mechanism, I’m sure similar processes could be used to determine steering and throttle controls. All these Hollywood plot lines and conspiracy theories suddenly don’t seem so far fetched.

neuralRiot 4y ago
I’m not sure with what purpose would anyone do that. Tracking? Assassination? Stealing? There’s simpler an more effective methods for any of that.
potatochup 4y ago
Usually there is a whitelisted set of messages available through the OBD port, it doesn't give you unfettered access to the CAN bus.
- tjoff 4y ago
  Enough for https://comma.ai/ https://comma.ai/ to work so can't be that restricted? Edit: thanks to responders, I misremembered how it worked.
  - bri3d 4y ago
    Comma.ai plugs into the vehicle's "backing" CAN busses (Powertrain, Sensors, infotainment, etc.) behind the Gateway, not the OBD port. This requires the removal of at least a few trim pieces and connectors. For example, the Giraffe module taps in at the high-mounted camera module on many cars, requiring the removal of ceiling trim and the installation of a custom connector / tap onto the CAN bus.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    Look at the installation procedure for that device. It requires removing the rearview mirror and plugging the device into the existing camera's wiring harness. It's not controlling anything via the OBD-C port.

londons_explore 4y ago

Hooking it up to a real car and sniffing the message bus where it connects would be by far the easiest approach to this... Then you don't even need to understand all the messages - just replay what the car sends and figure out which byte in the response is the current gear. You probably wouldn't even need to figure out the checksums!

Rychard 4y ago
The messages include an incrementing counter ID, which has to be accounted for when calculating the checksum. The purpose of this is specifically to prevent "replay attacks". If the counter doesn't increment on subsequent messages, it raises an error. If you increment the counter but do not recalculate the checksum, it raises an error.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  The counter is only one byte though - record 256 messages and you have the whole set. No need to understand the protocol or anything - just record a few minutes of data, find when a message repeats (indicating whatever counter mechanism is in use has rolled over), and replay that loop repeatedly. The only time this technique doesn't work is when a challenge-response algorithm is in use, but car stuff doesn't tend to do that except for some lock/security/firmware update type functionality.

phkahler 4y ago

A lot of the complexity here is because the gear selector is considered a safety-critical part. They may also consider LED indicators on it as safety-critical information to the driver. Those two things - is the transmission receiving the real intent of the driver, and is the driver being told the actual state of the system - are just the top level. Security is also starting to be a concern, though I think there is room for debate about how far they need to go with that. It's common to have all drivetrain components on a dedicated CAN bus with a gateway between it and other stuff. Your infotainment system is not going to put the car in Park regardless of what you run on it.

rconti 4y ago
Yup. Bad Things can happen: https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/20/autos/jeep-recall-anton-yelchin/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/20/autos/jeep-recall-anton-yel... I absolutely hate stateless switches on automotive stuff. Why can't I tell that my turn signal is on by 'feel'? Why do I have to rely on a (too quiet) clicking, or a (too hidden) indicator light? I have an E70 X5 with the "new style" transmission selector, as well as a Tesla 3 that replicates it on the right side of the column. Thankfully most cars seem to have stuck with the "forward = reverse", "Back=drive" convention; confusing as it sounds, at least it replicates a move from neutral on an automatic with a traditional PRNDL lever. Both cars also have stateless signals. The E90 and newer BMWs seem to have indicator clicks that are almost inaudible, and in almost every car I drive, the indicator lights are hidden behind the steering wheel, so you never know if the indicator has cancelled or not. On my "bad old world" BMW, at least you can feel the lever click down when it cancels. The Tesla also has a stateless signal switch, but it doesn't give me the same issues. I think the audible "click" is a lot more distinctive or something. Alas, the green flashy light is way over in the middle of the car instead of conveniently hidden behind the rim of the steering wheel.
- smilekzs 4y ago
  Fortunately, G20 onwards have returned to a mechanically latching turning signal stalk design. Unfortunately, ZN8/ZD8 Toyota GR86 / Subaru BRZ (the new ones!) have regressed to the dreaded mechanically momentary (non-latching) turning signal stalk design.

quarantaseih 4y ago

Im currently renting a BMW with this gear selector. In fairness, I throughly hate the car (an X1). Terrible lag, awful throttle response, terrible steering, unpredictable brakes, etc. But the two candidates for worst feature of the car are 1. The gear selector 2. The indicator lights Every time I have to engage one of the two I let out a little curse. I driven stick shifts, autos, rear wheel drive cars, trucks, front wheel drive cars, uHaul trucks, and manual motorcycles. Ive off-roaded in CA, driven through blizzards, Mediterranean traffic. This is by far my most hated driving experience.

simondotau 4y ago
Pretty much everything you’ve said is the exact opposite of my experience (BMW 1-series F20 125i). Great throttle response, minimal turbo lag, precise steering, and highly controllable confidence inspiring brakes. I can see why someone might not like the shifter and indicator stalk, but they simply haven’t been an issue for me. In fact there’s aspects of them which I prefer.
- sgt 4y ago
  Maybe throttle response/automatic transmission/turbo lag isn't completely predictable across the same models? That would be disturbing. I know that for example turbodiesels (even newish ones) start off pretty snappy but then turbo lag and other lags creep in.
- smilekzs 4y ago
  I have driven the X1 and various other BMWs. The X1 is indeed horrible, and there is a reason: For handling / lateral dynamics: The X1 is derived from essentially a MINI platform which is FWD-based (transverse engine), compared to the rest of the BMW lineup which is RWD-based (longitudinal engine). For power / longitudinal dynamics: If GP happened to be driving a 3-cylinder, then of course the turbo lag would be high. OTOH, the 4-cylinder B48 is a venerable engine with negligible lag (again used all across the BMW lineup).
  - quarantaseih 4y ago

dang 4y ago

Recent and related: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part One: Failures - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31883951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31883951 - June 2022 (87 comments)

harryha11er 4y ago

German here: Startled by your use of the word "Gangwahlschalter" (I had never heard the word before) I did a quick google search and apparently there is a German Dictionary company that actually tracks use of words and its synonyms. A query to their database confirmed my intuition that "Schalthebel" would be the word people would use. (src: https://www.dwds.de/r/plot/?view=1&corpus=zeitungenxl&norm=date%2Bclass&smooth=spline&genres=0&grand=1&slice=1&prune=0&window=3&wbase=0&logavg=0&logscale=0&xrange=1946%3A2022&q1=Gangwahlschalter&q2=Schalthebel&q3=Schaltkn%C3%BCppel&q4=W%C3%A4hlhebel https://www.dwds.de/r/plot/?view=1&corpus=zeitungenxl&norm=d...)

smilekzs 4y ago
On surface this sounds like refrigerator vs fridge ;)