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There is a contradiction in your reasoning. The system we have today requires surveillance and control of governments to function. The parallel system or syste

There is a contradiction in your reasoning. The system we have today requires surveillance and control of governments to function. The parallel system or systems on the internet would also require some form of external, i.e. off blockchain, control to function as well as the current system. So far humanity has not invented anything better than democratically elected governments to implement such controls. Blockchain cannot in principle replace governments because governing comes down to use of violence. Unless, of course, you are advocating going back to times when barons fought each other with private armies.

barnabee 4y ago
> The system we have today requires surveillance and control of governments to function. The parallel system or systems on the internet would also require some form of external, i.e. off blockchain, control to function as well as the current system. Two issues here: 1. The assumption that such, let's call it "government style" control (or at leaast a significant part of it) is necessary for such a system to function as well as the current one (a whole other question is what "as well as" means here). That seems possibly reasonable, but is certainly an assumption worth testing. 2. The assumption that you need a government to exert this "government style" control. Maybe humanity hasn't invented anything better and never will. But also maybe such things can exist, especially within a limited field like finance, and even if they can't, I'd take the Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace[1], should such a thing be needed/emerge, over the squabbling and overreach of nation state governments into the internet. There are already plenty of projects experimenting with "on-chain governance" and there are a myriad areas of research into governance of decentralised systems. It is perfectly possible that a system of financial (or other) projects/protocols might emerge that all subscribe to a protocol for such governance, which could even go as far as enforcing collateral ratios, risk reporting, whatever, but would still be fundamnetally controlled by its users in a way outside of government control. Or perhaps individual protocol level governance will be enough. Either way it seems completely unlikely that the present system is the best we can do. In this case, there would still of course continue to be the wild west of systems outside that regime, in competing regimes, or even working within the legacy financial system, but that freedom to innovate is a feature not a bug. > Blockchain cannot in principle replace governments because governing comes down to use of violence. Unless, of course, you are advocating going back to times when barons fought each other with private armies. This is why I qualified the goal with "on the internet". If you have privacy, pseudonymous participation, Tor (or Tor-like networks/blockchains, like Nym) , etc. and smart contract platforms that can issue, move, and lock up/control funds using composable code, run entirely on chain, then of course you can build protocols and systems that govern them that sit outside government control as long as they manifest themselves only virtually. It is only at the edges, where you interact with and move to and from virtual (the internet) and physical society that you become subject to state violence. Blockchains and related technology might help organise the push for some kind of change to how governments work (as the internet itself has), but whatever happens, you can probably do what you like when it's purely online, and you will probably still need a good answer to questions like "where did you get that money?". I think that's OK. [1] see https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence
- elchupanebre 4y ago
  Let me repeat: any kind of government comes down to monopoly on use of violence. It does not matter if it's Henry VIII or Kim Jong Un or Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace or Pablo Escobar. The core of any government is a monopoly on violence. If your Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace cannot or will not use violence to enforce its rules then it's not a government. Second: you can't eat blockchain, you can't fill your gas tank with blockchain, blockchain won't protect you from cold rain. You have to convert your cybercoin to real-world goods at some point. That means a contract "BTC 1000 for 1 loaf of bread". This contract has to be enforced off blockchain because 1 loaf of bread is not on blockchain (no, NFT is not a loaf of bread, you can't eat NFT). And you guessed it right: this contract has to be enforced with a threat of violence. That means off-blockchain government. > There are already plenty of projects experimenting with "on-chain governance" I bet you a $1 none of them will go anywhere. Like all those experimental applications of blockchain that IBM, Maersk, and many others played with. Hard no useful outcome, complete failure each and every time for fundamental reasons. Like a complete failure each and every time anyone tries to build a perpetuum mobile. There is one ONE (hard 1, like in math) use case for blockchain: circumvention of regulations. Once regulations are implemented on blockchain, it would lose its one and only use case.
  - barnabee 4y ago
    > Let me repeat: any kind of government comes down to monopoly on use of violence. It does not matter if it's Henry VIII or Kim Jong Un or Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace or Pablo Escobar. The core of any government is a monopoly on violence. If your Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace cannot or will not use violence to enforce its rules then it's not a government. There are things the government cannot know, and therefore things the government cannot control. Yes, they are ready to use violence to enforce their rules, no that doesn't help them read my encrypted data/messages/transactionds if I don't give them the key. It doesn't matter if the governance on the blockchain can't use violence if it also controls how some system you wish to use works, as long as that control is sufficient to build a useful version of the system (which, again, from the above, can work on the internet without the support of a violent governmnet). > Second: you can't eat blockchain, you can't fill your gas tank with blockchain, blockchain won't protect you from cold rain. You have to convert your cybercoin to real-world goods at some point. That means a contract "BTC 1000 for 1 loaf of bread". This contract has to be enforced off blockchain because 1 loaf of bread is not on blockchain (no, NFT is not a loaf of bread, you can't eat NFT). And you guessed it right: this contract has to be enforced with a threat of violence. That means off-blockchain government. Once again: on the internet. I am not saying you can live a completely parallel physical life, and again, if the government of wherever you live ask where you got the money, you're going to need a good answer (and perhaps proof that breaks your anonymity). That's completely outside my point. Firstly, you can choose to abide by the relevant local laws while also operating in a system that allows you the freedom to break the law. You do this when you drive a car within the speed limit or use end-to-end encrypted messaging legally. This alone is enough to justify building such systems. It is unacceptable to have compliance enforced on us as the current financial system does (and it's honestly crazy to me how many people who would not let governments agents regularly search through their stuff are fine with it when it comes to data or financial transactions), even if we intend to abide by all the rules under the threat of government violence. Secondly, you may think a parallel online society/financial system is not useful if you can't turn its money into your government's favourite fiat currency, but I strongly disagree. There are many interesting and important uses, for such a system. These include organising activists, civil disobendience and protest, resistance of corrupt or authoritarian regimes, etc. as well as emerging online communities and "places" like the metaverse. (No, I can't think of any reason to NFT a loaf of bread either.) > I bet you a $1 none of them will go anywhere. Like all those experimental applications of blockchain that IBM, Maersk, and many others played with. Hard no useful outcome, complete failure each and every time for fundamental reasons. Like a complete failure each and every time anyone tries to build a perpetuum mobile. We'll see. I'd take that bet — I certainly expect some forms of governance (not necessarily government) to make sense on blockchains and work out to be pretty useful, though I'll reserve judgement on exactly what that will look like for now. > There is one ONE (hard 1, like in math) use case for blockchain: circumvention of regulations. Once regulations are implemented on blockchain, it would lose its one and only use case. Not that I agree with this statement, but if the alternative is round the clock surveillance and authoritarian enforcement of regulations then it's incredibly important that this use case succeeds and is available to everyone!

barnabee 4y ago

> The system we have today requires surveillance and control of governments to function. The parallel system or systems on the internet would also require some form of external, i.e. off blockchain, control to function as well as the current system. Two issues here: 1. The assumption that such, let's call it "government style" control (or at leaast a significant part of it) is necessary for such a system to function as well as the current one (a whole other question is what "as well as" means here). That seems possibly reasonable, but is certainly an assumption worth testing. 2. The assumption that you need a government to exert this "government style" control. Maybe humanity hasn't invented anything better and never will. But also maybe such things can exist, especially within a limited field like finance, and even if they can't, I'd take the Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace[1], should such a thing be needed/emerge, over the squabbling and overreach of nation state governments into the internet. There are already plenty of projects experimenting with "on-chain governance" and there are a myriad areas of research into governance of decentralised systems. It is perfectly possible that a system of financial (or other) projects/protocols might emerge that all subscribe to a protocol for such governance, which could even go as far as enforcing collateral ratios, risk reporting, whatever, but would still be fundamnetally controlled by its users in a way outside of government control. Or perhaps individual protocol level governance will be enough. Either way it seems completely unlikely that the present system is the best we can do. In this case, there would still of course continue to be the wild west of systems outside that regime, in competing regimes, or even working within the legacy financial system, but that freedom to innovate is a feature not a bug. > Blockchain cannot in principle replace governments because governing comes down to use of violence. Unless, of course, you are advocating going back to times when barons fought each other with private armies. This is why I qualified the goal with "on the internet". If you have privacy, pseudonymous participation, Tor (or Tor-like networks/blockchains, like Nym) , etc. and smart contract platforms that can issue, move, and lock up/control funds using composable code, run entirely on chain, then of course you can build protocols and systems that govern them that sit outside government control as long as they manifest themselves only virtually. It is only at the edges, where you interact with and move to and from virtual (the internet) and physical society that you become subject to state violence. Blockchains and related technology might help organise the push for some kind of change to how governments work (as the internet itself has), but whatever happens, you can probably do what you like when it's purely online, and you will probably still need a good answer to questions like "where did you get that money?". I think that's OK. [1] see https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence

elchupanebre 4y ago
Let me repeat: any kind of government comes down to monopoly on use of violence. It does not matter if it's Henry VIII or Kim Jong Un or Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace or Pablo Escobar. The core of any government is a monopoly on violence. If your Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace cannot or will not use violence to enforce its rules then it's not a government. Second: you can't eat blockchain, you can't fill your gas tank with blockchain, blockchain won't protect you from cold rain. You have to convert your cybercoin to real-world goods at some point. That means a contract "BTC 1000 for 1 loaf of bread". This contract has to be enforced off blockchain because 1 loaf of bread is not on blockchain (no, NFT is not a loaf of bread, you can't eat NFT). And you guessed it right: this contract has to be enforced with a threat of violence. That means off-blockchain government. > There are already plenty of projects experimenting with "on-chain governance" I bet you a $1 none of them will go anywhere. Like all those experimental applications of blockchain that IBM, Maersk, and many others played with. Hard no useful outcome, complete failure each and every time for fundamental reasons. Like a complete failure each and every time anyone tries to build a perpetuum mobile. There is one ONE (hard 1, like in math) use case for blockchain: circumvention of regulations. Once regulations are implemented on blockchain, it would lose its one and only use case.
- barnabee 4y ago
  > Let me repeat: any kind of government comes down to monopoly on use of violence. It does not matter if it's Henry VIII or Kim Jong Un or Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace or Pablo Escobar. The core of any government is a monopoly on violence. If your Democratically Elected Government of Cyberspace cannot or will not use violence to enforce its rules then it's not a government. There are things the government cannot know, and therefore things the government cannot control. Yes, they are ready to use violence to enforce their rules, no that doesn't help them read my encrypted data/messages/transactionds if I don't give them the key. It doesn't matter if the governance on the blockchain can't use violence if it also controls how some system you wish to use works, as long as that control is sufficient to build a useful version of the system (which, again, from the above, can work on the internet without the support of a violent governmnet). > Second: you can't eat blockchain, you can't fill your gas tank with blockchain, blockchain won't protect you from cold rain. You have to convert your cybercoin to real-world goods at some point. That means a contract "BTC 1000 for 1 loaf of bread". This contract has to be enforced off blockchain because 1 loaf of bread is not on blockchain (no, NFT is not a loaf of bread, you can't eat NFT). And you guessed it right: this contract has to be enforced with a threat of violence. That means off-blockchain government. Once again: on the internet. I am not saying you can live a completely parallel physical life, and again, if the government of wherever you live ask where you got the money, you're going to need a good answer (and perhaps proof that breaks your anonymity). That's completely outside my point. Firstly, you can choose to abide by the relevant local laws while also operating in a system that allows you the freedom to break the law. You do this when you drive a car within the speed limit or use end-to-end encrypted messaging legally. This alone is enough to justify building such systems. It is unacceptable to have compliance enforced on us as the current financial system does (and it's honestly crazy to me how many people who would not let governments agents regularly search through their stuff are fine with it when it comes to data or financial transactions), even if we intend to abide by all the rules under the threat of government violence. Secondly, you may think a parallel online society/financial system is not useful if you can't turn its money into your government's favourite fiat currency, but I strongly disagree. There are many interesting and important uses, for such a system. These include organising activists, civil disobendience and protest, resistance of corrupt or authoritarian regimes, etc. as well as emerging online communities and "places" like the metaverse. (No, I can't think of any reason to NFT a loaf of bread either.) > I bet you a $1 none of them will go anywhere. Like all those experimental applications of blockchain that IBM, Maersk, and many others played with. Hard no useful outcome, complete failure each and every time for fundamental reasons. Like a complete failure each and every time anyone tries to build a perpetuum mobile. We'll see. I'd take that bet — I certainly expect some forms of governance (not necessarily government) to make sense on blockchains and work out to be pretty useful, though I'll reserve judgement on exactly what that will look like for now. > There is one ONE (hard 1, like in math) use case for blockchain: circumvention of regulations. Once regulations are implemented on blockchain, it would lose its one and only use case. Not that I agree with this statement, but if the alternative is round the clock surveillance and authoritarian enforcement of regulations then it's incredibly important that this use case succeeds and is available to everyone!