7 ms·

One can always test the hypothesis via an experiment: https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac

by adiM 4y ago

dilyevsky 4y ago
Heh was about to reply with the same video. It’s really counterintuitive even for people who ride a lot
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  It's counterintuitive to cyclists because we don't countersteer. We lean instead, generally subconsciously. If we didn't lean, it's true that we'd have to countersteer... but nobody rides that way, making it a flawed analogy at best.
  - dilyevsky 4y ago
    I’m not good downhill mtb rider but my understanding it’s really common technique there. Even on road i do that not to take a spill in sharp-ish downhill turn going at speed
  - kazinator 4y ago
    You always countersteer; you're just not doing it consciously. Because of that, you're doing it very slightly. Because you're doing it slightly, you enter into turns slowly. You're not able to take sharp corners at a decent speed. You cannot lean without countersteering first; the lean happens because you induced a fall in the desired direction, through a tiny countersteering move. With the tiny, subconscious counter-steers, you induce only small tilts. I suspect it takes multiple small counter-steering maneuvers to "build up" a decent tilt for a sharp turn, which takes time. Once I learned to deliberately countersteer, I then started doing it all the time. I hardly take any turn (big or small) on a bicycle without pushing forward the handle-bar on that side. If you don't make deliberate countersteering your main steering method, so that it becomes second nature, you will not be able to count on yourself to use it in an emergency.
    - CamperBob2 4y ago
      Maybe you countersteer. I don't. I checked by riding through a puddle, turning right, and then checking the resulting trail left by the tires. No overshoot whatsoever.
      - kazinator 4y ago
        Your interpretation of the trail must have missed something. We know that all turning of a bike is via countersteering. You wouldn't be able to turn right on a bike whose steering is locked out from turning left. (See video upthread.)
        whycombinetor 4y ago
        You can ride a bicycle that is locked out from steering at all. (You can ride one-footed on anti-rocker (2 wheel) inline skates, with some practice).
whycombinetor 4y ago
Indeed. I like this clip where they show bike steering to the left, without its front wheel ever going to the right side of its original path, by only leaning and no countersteering. https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac?t=445 https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac?t=445
- mk12 4y ago
  That's with no rider on the bike. Earlier in the video when he attempts to turn with the device that prevents countersteering, he falls off every time. It seems unlikely that 50M cyclists could easily do this but he could not.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    The bicycle and riding style used in the video do not provide a good illustration, I have no idea what he was trying to do as he crashed repeatedly, and he did not seem (or the frame prevented him) to use the ability of his body to lean the bike into the turn, riding naively (which didn't prevent them from talking down as if there is a clear consensus in the field of bicycle dynamics). At low speeds on e.g. a light MTB stop pedaling, lift your butt off the saddle, lean bike far into desired side balancing your body and handlebars to keep going straight. You have most of what's needed to turn. You may countersteer but your line does not veer into the direction of countersteer, counter to illustrations. Riding edge of a cliff is not a great idea anyway because balancing a bicycle tends to require countless small adjustments even due to pedaling alone.
    - kazinator 4y ago
      > The bicycle and riding style used in the video do not provide a good illustration It's good enough if you already understand it and know what to look for; just not the best for convincing someone who doesn't believe the physics.
      - throwaway290 4y ago
        You don't just believe the physics. If there is consensus in physics that says you cannot turn a bicycle without measurably turning the opposite way first, feel free to link. It's a ridiculous claim that assumes certain speeds, bicycle type and riding style. I've seen a guy ride a narrow rocky ridge, even jumping from stone to stone where needed (without stepping off the bicycle), was he violating laws of physics or is the world more complex than simplified models of it? Either way, it is just bikeshedding.

One can always test the hypothesis via an experiment: https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac

by adiM 4y ago

One can always test the hypothesis via an experiment: https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac

dilyevsky 4y ago

Heh was about to reply with the same video. It’s really counterintuitive even for people who ride a lot

CamperBob2 4y ago
It's counterintuitive to cyclists because we don't countersteer. We lean instead, generally subconsciously. If we didn't lean, it's true that we'd have to countersteer... but nobody rides that way, making it a flawed analogy at best.
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  I’m not good downhill mtb rider but my understanding it’s really common technique there. Even on road i do that not to take a spill in sharp-ish downhill turn going at speed
- kazinator 4y ago
  You always countersteer; you're just not doing it consciously. Because of that, you're doing it very slightly. Because you're doing it slightly, you enter into turns slowly. You're not able to take sharp corners at a decent speed. You cannot lean without countersteering first; the lean happens because you induced a fall in the desired direction, through a tiny countersteering move. With the tiny, subconscious counter-steers, you induce only small tilts. I suspect it takes multiple small counter-steering maneuvers to "build up" a decent tilt for a sharp turn, which takes time. Once I learned to deliberately countersteer, I then started doing it all the time. I hardly take any turn (big or small) on a bicycle without pushing forward the handle-bar on that side. If you don't make deliberate countersteering your main steering method, so that it becomes second nature, you will not be able to count on yourself to use it in an emergency.
  - CamperBob2 4y ago
    Maybe you countersteer. I don't. I checked by riding through a puddle, turning right, and then checking the resulting trail left by the tires. No overshoot whatsoever.
    - kazinator 4y ago
      Your interpretation of the trail must have missed something. We know that all turning of a bike is via countersteering. You wouldn't be able to turn right on a bike whose steering is locked out from turning left. (See video upthread.)
      - whycombinetor 4y ago
        You can ride a bicycle that is locked out from steering at all. (You can ride one-footed on anti-rocker (2 wheel) inline skates, with some practice).

whycombinetor 4y ago

Indeed. I like this clip where they show bike steering to the left, without its front wheel ever going to the right side of its original path, by only leaning and no countersteering. https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac?t=445 https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac?t=445

mk12 4y ago
That's with no rider on the bike. Earlier in the video when he attempts to turn with the device that prevents countersteering, he falls off every time. It seems unlikely that 50M cyclists could easily do this but he could not.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  The bicycle and riding style used in the video do not provide a good illustration, I have no idea what he was trying to do as he crashed repeatedly, and he did not seem (or the frame prevented him) to use the ability of his body to lean the bike into the turn, riding naively (which didn't prevent them from talking down as if there is a clear consensus in the field of bicycle dynamics). At low speeds on e.g. a light MTB stop pedaling, lift your butt off the saddle, lean bike far into desired side balancing your body and handlebars to keep going straight. You have most of what's needed to turn. You may countersteer but your line does not veer into the direction of countersteer, counter to illustrations. Riding edge of a cliff is not a great idea anyway because balancing a bicycle tends to require countless small adjustments even due to pedaling alone.
  - kazinator 4y ago
    > The bicycle and riding style used in the video do not provide a good illustration It's good enough if you already understand it and know what to look for; just not the best for convincing someone who doesn't believe the physics.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      You don't just believe the physics. If there is consensus in physics that says you cannot turn a bicycle without measurably turning the opposite way first, feel free to link. It's a ridiculous claim that assumes certain speeds, bicycle type and riding style. I've seen a guy ride a narrow rocky ridge, even jumping from stone to stone where needed (without stepping off the bicycle), was he violating laws of physics or is the world more complex than simplified models of it? Either way, it is just bikeshedding.