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No, the Mac is worth something in and of itself. It is a tool of productivity, entertainment, education, creation, etc. And, failing all of that, it's valuable

No, the Mac is worth something in and of itself. It is a tool of productivity, entertainment, education, creation, etc. And, failing all of that, it's valuable for its parts. A bitcoin is an ID number pointing to pretend money. It has zero intrinsic value.

birracerveza 4y ago
I'm sure that if someone were to gift you one Bitcoin you would not refuse it on the basis that it's just an ID number pointing to pretend money with zero intrinsic value, would you?
- strofcon 4y ago
  Sure - today, as the situation stands, I'd sell it in a heartbeat, because there is still a vast supply of greater fools. That doesn't mean it has intrinsic value, nor that it would be an ethical / moral choice. Just means that I have loose enough morals to be happy to take an idiot's money. When suddenly it loses its popularity and/or supply of greater fools, it'll fall apart, and I'll have taken some poor sap's actual money, even if it was delayed / distanced / distributed by some thousands of layers.
  - birracerveza 4y ago
    And what is the intrinsic value of actual money again?
Ologn 4y ago
Correct, I can exchange a Mac for something else, or I can use it. Bitcoins are obviously exchanged but have not use.
- strofcon 4y ago
  This. In the event that the world falls apart, the Mac is at least usable as a weighted object, if all else fails. Bitcoins become purely thought in such a situation, and even in far less catastrophic ones.
everfree 4y ago
Productivity, entertainment, education, and creation are all subjective, just like the value of an entry in a ledger. I could say "I don't use Macs because I find I can't be productive with them." That's a subjective statement. Or I could say "I don't find it entertaining to sit in front of a Mac," or "I don't learn anything when I use a Mac," "I can't create anything valuable using a Mac." None of the properties you listed are intrinsic properties of the Mac, they're all a function of the Mac's utility to certain people in certain situations. Perhaps I'm Amish. Or perhaps I don't have an internet connection. Or I am old and blind and don't have a friend to teach me to use a screen reader. The Mac would be valueless to me. So, the Mac's value is derived solely from its utility to a certain group of people. It lets that group of people perform tasks that they couldn't perform (or would perform less efficiently) without it. That's the same way Bitcoin's value is derived. > pretend money All money is pretend. > It has zero intrinsic value. All money has zero intrinsic value. Extrinsic value is still value.
- Frisiavones 4y ago
- strofcon 4y ago
  Value is subjective in many cases, yes, but there is still intrinsic value in the device itself, if we have to boil it down. You missed that bit - the intrinsic part is literally the metals of which the device is made. Even failing that, it's useful as a weighted object. You can get down to the nuts and bolts of a thing with intrinsic value, such that even in the vent that society collapses and there's no coordinated economy to speak of, there is still SOMETHING for which the thing/service can be used. Cryptocurrencies literally stop existing in such an event, and become entirely worthless in even less catastrophic situations. Money is an agreed upon tool for exchanging items/services of value - but it also a store of value, because it retains at least a semblance of stability. Cryptocurrencies are... well, not currencies, for starters, but they're also simply a proxy for "real" money (ie: fiat). Where cryptocurrencies entirely fall apart is when the realization hits that they all fall into the greater fool category - once you run out of new marks, the scheme collapses, and all the money - note actual currency - ends up in the hands of a few early adopters and a couple extra lucky folks who timed it right. Negative sum games are not a good thing to prop up.

birracerveza 4y ago

I'm sure that if someone were to gift you one Bitcoin you would not refuse it on the basis that it's just an ID number pointing to pretend money with zero intrinsic value, would you?

strofcon 4y ago
Sure - today, as the situation stands, I'd sell it in a heartbeat, because there is still a vast supply of greater fools. That doesn't mean it has intrinsic value, nor that it would be an ethical / moral choice. Just means that I have loose enough morals to be happy to take an idiot's money. When suddenly it loses its popularity and/or supply of greater fools, it'll fall apart, and I'll have taken some poor sap's actual money, even if it was delayed / distanced / distributed by some thousands of layers.
- birracerveza 4y ago
  And what is the intrinsic value of actual money again?

Ologn 4y ago

Correct, I can exchange a Mac for something else, or I can use it. Bitcoins are obviously exchanged but have not use.

strofcon 4y ago
This. In the event that the world falls apart, the Mac is at least usable as a weighted object, if all else fails. Bitcoins become purely thought in such a situation, and even in far less catastrophic ones.

everfree 4y ago

Productivity, entertainment, education, and creation are all subjective, just like the value of an entry in a ledger. I could say "I don't use Macs because I find I can't be productive with them." That's a subjective statement. Or I could say "I don't find it entertaining to sit in front of a Mac," or "I don't learn anything when I use a Mac," "I can't create anything valuable using a Mac." None of the properties you listed are intrinsic properties of the Mac, they're all a function of the Mac's utility to certain people in certain situations. Perhaps I'm Amish. Or perhaps I don't have an internet connection. Or I am old and blind and don't have a friend to teach me to use a screen reader. The Mac would be valueless to me. So, the Mac's value is derived solely from its utility to a certain group of people. It lets that group of people perform tasks that they couldn't perform (or would perform less efficiently) without it. That's the same way Bitcoin's value is derived. > pretend money All money is pretend. > It has zero intrinsic value. All money has zero intrinsic value. Extrinsic value is still value.

Frisiavones 4y ago
strofcon 4y ago
Value is subjective in many cases, yes, but there is still intrinsic value in the device itself, if we have to boil it down. You missed that bit - the intrinsic part is literally the metals of which the device is made. Even failing that, it's useful as a weighted object. You can get down to the nuts and bolts of a thing with intrinsic value, such that even in the vent that society collapses and there's no coordinated economy to speak of, there is still SOMETHING for which the thing/service can be used. Cryptocurrencies literally stop existing in such an event, and become entirely worthless in even less catastrophic situations. Money is an agreed upon tool for exchanging items/services of value - but it also a store of value, because it retains at least a semblance of stability. Cryptocurrencies are... well, not currencies, for starters, but they're also simply a proxy for "real" money (ie: fiat). Where cryptocurrencies entirely fall apart is when the realization hits that they all fall into the greater fool category - once you run out of new marks, the scheme collapses, and all the money - note actual currency - ends up in the hands of a few early adopters and a couple extra lucky folks who timed it right. Negative sum games are not a good thing to prop up.