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They aren't saying that. They are recognizing that many forms of power in society are zero sum. There are plenty of ways to get a great education but only one H

They aren't saying that. They are recognizing that many forms of power in society are zero sum. There are plenty of ways to get a great education but only one Harvard and a limited amount of power to be distributed via an institution like Harvard. You and many like you believe that access to these institutions should be gatekeeped via a meritocracy. The supporters of this form of affirmative action recognize that in a system where black/latino/indigenous students have structural disadvantages (poverty, prejudice, health, etc) that any pure meritocracy leads to a system where their racial group possesses disproportionately less power vs their population. The reason you see that as "racial tribes" is that you fundamentally are underestimating how much marginalized communities distrust communities outside of their own. Black people do not trust that if Asian students go to Harvard and gain positions of power that those adults will protect their interests. They want their own in those positions.

MockObject 4y ago
> There are plenty of ways to get a great education but only one Harvard We had only one Harvard when the country's population was quite a bit smaller. Perhaps, instead of the zero-sum struggle for Harvard attendance, we should be working to create new Harvards. We have the oversupply of academics.
- secabeen 4y ago
  > Perhaps, instead of the zero-sum struggle for Harvard attendance, we should be working to create new Harvards. That takes not dis-investing in public higher ed to the degree we did during the 2008 recession. It takes decades to build a new R1 research institution, and a commitment of large sums of money over that time. Rockefeller created the University of Chicago, Leyland Stanford his namesake, where are Buffet, Bloomberg, Walton, Mars, and Gates Universities? That could be a good use of some of the modern billionaire money, if we're not going to spend tax dollars on new R1 institutions.
  - MockObject 4y ago
    It's hard to comprehend disinvestment given that tuitions have increased 10x over a few decades, but > where are Buffet, Bloomberg, Walton, Mars, and Gates Universities? That's a very good point.
    - secabeen 4y ago
      > It's hard to comprehend disinvestment given that tuitions have increased 10x over a few decades, but Disinvestement is the exact reason tuition has increased. The discount funded by state legistatures is being reduced, so tuition has to go up to balance the books.
zmgsabst 4y ago
> The supporters of this form of affirmative action recognize that in a system where black/latino/indigenous students have structural disadvantages (poverty, prejudice, health, etc) that any pure meritocracy leads to a system where their racial group possesses disproportionately less power vs their population. You’re describing why you believe it’s okay to discriminate against that Asian student because there’s “too many yellows, not enough blacks”. You’re also ignoring that they’re choosing to engage in institutional racism rather than utilize programs such as meritocracy + individual aid, which automatically counter any “structural disadvantages” — that is, they’re choosing racism when better alternatives exist. > The reason you see that as "racial tribes" is that you fundamentally are underestimating how much marginalized communities distrust communities outside of their own. Black people do not trust that if Asian students go to Harvard and gain positions of power that those adults will protect their interests. They want their own in those positions. You just described racism and a belief in racial tribes — exactly what I said was driving this. > They aren't saying that. You start off disagreeing — and then go on to describe exactly what I said.
- nlittlepoole 4y ago
  > You’re describing why you believe it’s okay to discriminate against that Asian student because there’s “too many yellows, not enough blacks”. Not really. If intelligence is equal between races and a system is an actual meritocracy, then the balance between groups should be the same. One group outperforming indicates a difference in circumstances. If you believe those circumstances aren't because of disadvantages then you either believe one group is inherently more capable than the other, one group works harder than the other, or that one group has a more effective culture. Generally, there is a lot of animosity within the black community toward ̶A̶s̶i̶a̶n̶ people who tend to believe any of the above (because it is pretty common amongst racist). > You’re also ignoring that they’re choosing to engage in institutional racism rather than utilize programs such as meritocracy + individual aid, which automatically counter any “structural disadvantages” — and is in sharp contrast to their proposed racist system that rewards privileged blacks ahead of poor Asians. One of the many reasons such racist systems fail, in practice: they don’t confront the issue you claim they address. Are you arguing structural disadvantages are not real? are you arguing that the issue in the black community is effort? if the issue isn't structural disadvantages, what do you think they are? > You just described racism and a belief in racial tribes — exactly what I said was driving this ... You start off disagreeing — and then go on to describe exactly what I said. I'm disagreeing with the policy as an effective way to address a set of issues. I never said I disagreed with the idea that there are tribes. Tribes are going to exist as long as we live in a society that offers members of different tribes different opportunities and experiences within society. The way to fix that is not to just pretend that doesn't exist. A meritocracy can't exist until everyone within a society believes they have a fair chance to participate in it and it is not controversial to say most black people do not believe that is the status quo. You are choosing to see this as people trying to take something away from you when its really a bunch of people lashing out over the fact that the system was never fair in the first place.
MockObject 4y ago
> underestimating how much marginalized communities distrust communities outside of their own. Black people do not trust that if Asian students go to Harvard and gain positions of power that those adults will protect their interests. They want their own in those positions. I can't adopt this level of cynicism, or else I'd have to conclude that multi-ethnic societies are doomed to fall apart like Yugoslavia, or remain together using synthetic means like the Lebanese National Pact⁰, which specifies power sharing with agreements like * The Prime Minister of the Republic always be a Sunni Muslim. * The Speaker of the Parliament always be a Shia Muslim. * The Deputy Speaker of the Parliament and the Deputy Prime Minister always be Greek Orthodox Christian. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Pact

MockObject 4y ago

> There are plenty of ways to get a great education but only one Harvard We had only one Harvard when the country's population was quite a bit smaller. Perhaps, instead of the zero-sum struggle for Harvard attendance, we should be working to create new Harvards. We have the oversupply of academics.

secabeen 4y ago
> Perhaps, instead of the zero-sum struggle for Harvard attendance, we should be working to create new Harvards. That takes not dis-investing in public higher ed to the degree we did during the 2008 recession. It takes decades to build a new R1 research institution, and a commitment of large sums of money over that time. Rockefeller created the University of Chicago, Leyland Stanford his namesake, where are Buffet, Bloomberg, Walton, Mars, and Gates Universities? That could be a good use of some of the modern billionaire money, if we're not going to spend tax dollars on new R1 institutions.
- MockObject 4y ago
  It's hard to comprehend disinvestment given that tuitions have increased 10x over a few decades, but > where are Buffet, Bloomberg, Walton, Mars, and Gates Universities? That's a very good point.
  - secabeen 4y ago
    > It's hard to comprehend disinvestment given that tuitions have increased 10x over a few decades, but Disinvestement is the exact reason tuition has increased. The discount funded by state legistatures is being reduced, so tuition has to go up to balance the books.

zmgsabst 4y ago

> The supporters of this form of affirmative action recognize that in a system where black/latino/indigenous students have structural disadvantages (poverty, prejudice, health, etc) that any pure meritocracy leads to a system where their racial group possesses disproportionately less power vs their population. You’re describing why you believe it’s okay to discriminate against that Asian student because there’s “too many yellows, not enough blacks”. You’re also ignoring that they’re choosing to engage in institutional racism rather than utilize programs such as meritocracy + individual aid, which automatically counter any “structural disadvantages” — that is, they’re choosing racism when better alternatives exist. > The reason you see that as "racial tribes" is that you fundamentally are underestimating how much marginalized communities distrust communities outside of their own. Black people do not trust that if Asian students go to Harvard and gain positions of power that those adults will protect their interests. They want their own in those positions. You just described racism and a belief in racial tribes — exactly what I said was driving this. > They aren't saying that. You start off disagreeing — and then go on to describe exactly what I said.

nlittlepoole 4y ago
> You’re describing why you believe it’s okay to discriminate against that Asian student because there’s “too many yellows, not enough blacks”. Not really. If intelligence is equal between races and a system is an actual meritocracy, then the balance between groups should be the same. One group outperforming indicates a difference in circumstances. If you believe those circumstances aren't because of disadvantages then you either believe one group is inherently more capable than the other, one group works harder than the other, or that one group has a more effective culture. Generally, there is a lot of animosity within the black community toward ̶A̶s̶i̶a̶n̶ people who tend to believe any of the above (because it is pretty common amongst racist). > You’re also ignoring that they’re choosing to engage in institutional racism rather than utilize programs such as meritocracy + individual aid, which automatically counter any “structural disadvantages” — and is in sharp contrast to their proposed racist system that rewards privileged blacks ahead of poor Asians. One of the many reasons such racist systems fail, in practice: they don’t confront the issue you claim they address. Are you arguing structural disadvantages are not real? are you arguing that the issue in the black community is effort? if the issue isn't structural disadvantages, what do you think they are? > You just described racism and a belief in racial tribes — exactly what I said was driving this ... You start off disagreeing — and then go on to describe exactly what I said. I'm disagreeing with the policy as an effective way to address a set of issues. I never said I disagreed with the idea that there are tribes. Tribes are going to exist as long as we live in a society that offers members of different tribes different opportunities and experiences within society. The way to fix that is not to just pretend that doesn't exist. A meritocracy can't exist until everyone within a society believes they have a fair chance to participate in it and it is not controversial to say most black people do not believe that is the status quo. You are choosing to see this as people trying to take something away from you when its really a bunch of people lashing out over the fact that the system was never fair in the first place.

MockObject 4y ago

> underestimating how much marginalized communities distrust communities outside of their own. Black people do not trust that if Asian students go to Harvard and gain positions of power that those adults will protect their interests. They want their own in those positions. I can't adopt this level of cynicism, or else I'd have to conclude that multi-ethnic societies are doomed to fall apart like Yugoslavia, or remain together using synthetic means like the Lebanese National Pact⁰, which specifies power sharing with agreements like * The Prime Minister of the Republic always be a Sunni Muslim. * The Speaker of the Parliament always be a Shia Muslim. * The Deputy Speaker of the Parliament and the Deputy Prime Minister always be Greek Orthodox Christian. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Pact