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“These are some of the most sincere, honest, and heroic people I’ve ever met.” Yeah, I think we’re too hard as a nation on ex-cons. But they’re not heroes beca

“These are some of the most sincere, honest, and heroic people I’ve ever met.” Yeah, I think we’re too hard as a nation on ex-cons. But they’re not heroes because they went through self-imposed hardships (and almost always at the expense of someone innocent). And they’re certainly among the lower rungs of honesty by categorization. Nowhere near the top. If this sounds harsh, just act their victims.

lgessler 4y ago
There are many, many victimless crimes that people are unreasonably incarcerated for.
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giraffe_lady 4y ago
fuck offffff seriously. The hardships aren't self-imposed, our justice system is specifically and intentionally retributive, imposing punishment for its own sake rather than imposing consequences with the goal of rehabilitation. And we're talking here of additional ad-hoc social punishments beyond the terms of the sentence that make finding a job harder. The level of personal discipline it takes to get released and stay "good" on probation is far beyond what we expect from workers in general and almost certainly stricter than either of us requires for ourselves. The level of humility and, frankly, debasement it takes to find a willing employer with a felony conviction is if not heroic at least saintly.
- RickWolter 4y ago
  we are always looking for folks such as yourself to help with underdog devs. https://www.underdogdevs.org https://www.underdogdevs.org and on Twitter @UnderdogDevs
- mynameishere 4y ago
  The level of personal discipline it takes to get released and stay "good" on probation is far beyond what we expect from workers in general and almost certainly stricter than either of us requires for ourselves. Yeah, it's part of the corrections system. You go on probation or parole and they keep you on a leash. It's intentional. If you don't like it, you can serve out the whole term. "Saintly". For god's sake people. Listen to yourselves. How many cars I gotta jack before people start calling me a saint, anyway?
  - mellavora 4y ago
    The "saintly" is not because they committed a crime, it is because they are willing to endure a "level of humility and, frankly, debasement it takes to find a willing employer" instead of going out and jacking a car. They have to put up with people with opinions like yours, which do not allow them any hope of redemption. I wonder what you are like when you need forgiveness? I do hope you get some, and even more that it opens your eyes and heart.
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  > The hardships aren't self-imposed, our justice system is specifically and intentionally retributive If you want to know why this is, I would recommend Discipline and Punish by Foucault. Our present systems of justice go back hundreds of years, when a crime was considered an attack on the sovereign, aka the King, or the Prince. Back then crimes were punished by Hanging, or Torture, and it was done as an exercise of terror. The primary purpose of this wasn't the prevention of crime (Do you really think royalty cared if peasants killed each-other?), but rather punishment for disobeying the King. All modern systems of Law are essentially still medieval systems, and it's why crimes that happen exclusively between two people are prosecuted as Person v. State of Whatever. The process of justice isn't for the criminal, it's to remind the rest of us of the total power of the State.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    >Do you really think royalty cared if peasants killed each-other?) Kinda hard to raise an army to fight the adjacent royal when one town's contingent hates some other town's contingent more than they hate the enemy. But yeah, they mostly let the peasants do whatever so long as the particular whatever wasn't potentially bad for them.
  - floxy 4y ago
    >it's why crimes that happen exclusively between two people are prosecuted as Person v. State That's to eliminate the inter-generational blood feud's that were previously common when it wasn't the case that violent crimes were crimes against the state.
  - orthecreedence 4y ago
    That's a very interesting historical viewpoint of the justice system. I've often wondered what in our culture (in the US at least) lead to such a draconian system. I think the thing I take issue with most isn't even the system proper itself as much as the culture around it: stripping felons of voting rights (in a country billing itself as the "Land of the Free"), using prisoners as slave labor (we have protected slavery in the bill of rghts!), and treating them almost like lepers after they have served their sentence/punishment. It's sickening.
- Jiro 4y ago
  You might argue that the hardships imposed by the justice system aren't self-imposed. But this was about hiring criminals. Aside from certain special cases (like laws which prohibit hiring felons for certain jobs). any hardship that results because someone won't hire the criminal is self-imposed; the criminal's own actions are why potential employers don't trust him.
- RBBronson123 4y ago
  Right on, G!
javajosh 4y ago
America is so strange. On one hand, nearly everyone thinks the system doesn't work. And yet, they tacitly assume the justice system works. They think it works just like on TV - innocent until proven guilty, detail-oriented public defenders and judges, and scrupulously honest prosecutors and police. It's nothing like that. The justice system is a machine that chews people up, and spits out convicts, and it operates with impunity precisely because of ignorant views like yours. Getting arrested or convicted is like winning a shit lottery, and all you need to win is to be around a cop having a bad day. Since very few people are "winners", so the knowledge of the real system is minimized, and the knowledgeable ones are marginalized and ignored because they are, after all, convicts. People break the law and do so with impunity all day long. In fact, they get paid well to do it. Your typical family law attorney should be arrested, tried and convicted, and they've destroyed countless families, harmed countless children. But they are pillars of the community. So just because someone got punished by these corrupt people doesn't make them evil, it makes them unlucky. (In fairness I'd estimate that 90% of arrests/convictions/plea deals are straightforward, valid and basically fair, and those convicts often are repeat offenders, low intelligence, struggling with addiction and mental health. They deserve a chance too, but it's the 10% who get swept up for breaking no law, or breaking needlessly punitive laws, that I particularly feel for. You know, the Aaron Swartz's of the world.)
- torbTurret 4y ago
  I agree with this. The justice system is fucked up. I’ve been arrested myself, so this isn’t some punitive viewpoint looking in from outside. My point is that I don’t agree with labeling someone convicted of a crime as being among society’s most heroic or honest. That’s just a laughably ridiculous statement.
- throwaway92394 4y ago
  > In fact, they get paid well to do it. Your typical family law attorney should be arrested, tried and convicted, and they've destroyed countless families, harmed countless children. I was with you up until this. While I understand the view that what many attorneys do is immoral or wrong - generally speaking to my knowledge there isn't widespread illegal behavior? I understand but don't fully agree with the view that laywers are "evil" - but the way I see it is they are skilled at playing by the rules of the law. This makes them incredibly powerful (for both sides of people that can afford it), but if they are generally playing by the law - thus not arrestable. Tearing a family apart because the mother is an A hole and lies about things the father does might be immoral - but it's not illegal for an attorney to represent them.

lgessler 4y ago

There are many, many victimless crimes that people are unreasonably incarcerated for.

deleted 4y ago
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deleted 4y ago
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giraffe_lady 4y ago

fuck offffff seriously. The hardships aren't self-imposed, our justice system is specifically and intentionally retributive, imposing punishment for its own sake rather than imposing consequences with the goal of rehabilitation. And we're talking here of additional ad-hoc social punishments beyond the terms of the sentence that make finding a job harder. The level of personal discipline it takes to get released and stay "good" on probation is far beyond what we expect from workers in general and almost certainly stricter than either of us requires for ourselves. The level of humility and, frankly, debasement it takes to find a willing employer with a felony conviction is if not heroic at least saintly.

RickWolter 4y ago
we are always looking for folks such as yourself to help with underdog devs. https://www.underdogdevs.org https://www.underdogdevs.org and on Twitter @UnderdogDevs
mynameishere 4y ago
The level of personal discipline it takes to get released and stay "good" on probation is far beyond what we expect from workers in general and almost certainly stricter than either of us requires for ourselves. Yeah, it's part of the corrections system. You go on probation or parole and they keep you on a leash. It's intentional. If you don't like it, you can serve out the whole term. "Saintly". For god's sake people. Listen to yourselves. How many cars I gotta jack before people start calling me a saint, anyway?
- mellavora 4y ago
  The "saintly" is not because they committed a crime, it is because they are willing to endure a "level of humility and, frankly, debasement it takes to find a willing employer" instead of going out and jacking a car. They have to put up with people with opinions like yours, which do not allow them any hope of redemption. I wonder what you are like when you need forgiveness? I do hope you get some, and even more that it opens your eyes and heart.
oceanplexian 4y ago
> The hardships aren't self-imposed, our justice system is specifically and intentionally retributive If you want to know why this is, I would recommend Discipline and Punish by Foucault. Our present systems of justice go back hundreds of years, when a crime was considered an attack on the sovereign, aka the King, or the Prince. Back then crimes were punished by Hanging, or Torture, and it was done as an exercise of terror. The primary purpose of this wasn't the prevention of crime (Do you really think royalty cared if peasants killed each-other?), but rather punishment for disobeying the King. All modern systems of Law are essentially still medieval systems, and it's why crimes that happen exclusively between two people are prosecuted as Person v. State of Whatever. The process of justice isn't for the criminal, it's to remind the rest of us of the total power of the State.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >Do you really think royalty cared if peasants killed each-other?) Kinda hard to raise an army to fight the adjacent royal when one town's contingent hates some other town's contingent more than they hate the enemy. But yeah, they mostly let the peasants do whatever so long as the particular whatever wasn't potentially bad for them.
- floxy 4y ago
  >it's why crimes that happen exclusively between two people are prosecuted as Person v. State That's to eliminate the inter-generational blood feud's that were previously common when it wasn't the case that violent crimes were crimes against the state.
- orthecreedence 4y ago
  That's a very interesting historical viewpoint of the justice system. I've often wondered what in our culture (in the US at least) lead to such a draconian system. I think the thing I take issue with most isn't even the system proper itself as much as the culture around it: stripping felons of voting rights (in a country billing itself as the "Land of the Free"), using prisoners as slave labor (we have protected slavery in the bill of rghts!), and treating them almost like lepers after they have served their sentence/punishment. It's sickening.
Jiro 4y ago
You might argue that the hardships imposed by the justice system aren't self-imposed. But this was about hiring criminals. Aside from certain special cases (like laws which prohibit hiring felons for certain jobs). any hardship that results because someone won't hire the criminal is self-imposed; the criminal's own actions are why potential employers don't trust him.
RBBronson123 4y ago
Right on, G!

javajosh 4y ago

America is so strange. On one hand, nearly everyone thinks the system doesn't work. And yet, they tacitly assume the justice system works. They think it works just like on TV - innocent until proven guilty, detail-oriented public defenders and judges, and scrupulously honest prosecutors and police. It's nothing like that. The justice system is a machine that chews people up, and spits out convicts, and it operates with impunity precisely because of ignorant views like yours. Getting arrested or convicted is like winning a shit lottery, and all you need to win is to be around a cop having a bad day. Since very few people are "winners", so the knowledge of the real system is minimized, and the knowledgeable ones are marginalized and ignored because they are, after all, convicts. People break the law and do so with impunity all day long. In fact, they get paid well to do it. Your typical family law attorney should be arrested, tried and convicted, and they've destroyed countless families, harmed countless children. But they are pillars of the community. So just because someone got punished by these corrupt people doesn't make them evil, it makes them unlucky. (In fairness I'd estimate that 90% of arrests/convictions/plea deals are straightforward, valid and basically fair, and those convicts often are repeat offenders, low intelligence, struggling with addiction and mental health. They deserve a chance too, but it's the 10% who get swept up for breaking no law, or breaking needlessly punitive laws, that I particularly feel for. You know, the Aaron Swartz's of the world.)

torbTurret 4y ago
I agree with this. The justice system is fucked up. I’ve been arrested myself, so this isn’t some punitive viewpoint looking in from outside. My point is that I don’t agree with labeling someone convicted of a crime as being among society’s most heroic or honest. That’s just a laughably ridiculous statement.
throwaway92394 4y ago
> In fact, they get paid well to do it. Your typical family law attorney should be arrested, tried and convicted, and they've destroyed countless families, harmed countless children. I was with you up until this. While I understand the view that what many attorneys do is immoral or wrong - generally speaking to my knowledge there isn't widespread illegal behavior? I understand but don't fully agree with the view that laywers are "evil" - but the way I see it is they are skilled at playing by the rules of the law. This makes them incredibly powerful (for both sides of people that can afford it), but if they are generally playing by the law - thus not arrestable. Tearing a family apart because the mother is an A hole and lies about things the father does might be immoral - but it's not illegal for an attorney to represent them.