7 ms·

I wish FreeBSD was more popular. I run it on my personal servers for more than a decade non-stop. I do have currently one FreeBSD at home which works as my NAS/

I wish FreeBSD was more popular. I run it on my personal servers for more than a decade non-stop. I do have currently one FreeBSD at home which works as my NAS/backup server/whatever I need it to do plus two remote machines (mail/www/db/ns running in jails). About a year ago I migrated one FreeBSD to OpenBSD because it's just an advanced router. I took conservative approach and I always run -RELEASE version, not even -STABLE. I'm glad Klara is evaluating -CURRENT branch, good read. Btw, once - several years ago I bought an new system and network card was not supported in the -RELEASE branch, so I took the driver from -CURRENT, compiled and loaded as kernel module. Worked flawlessly :)

binkHN 4y ago
> I wish FreeBSD was more popular. I run it on my personal servers for more than a decade non-stop. ... About a year ago I migrated one FreeBSD to OpenBSD... This is exactly how I feel about OpenBSD. While part of me is happy that it's a niche OS, another part of me wishes that it had more support by being a more mainstream OS.
just_for_you 4y ago
Question: If you use the FreeBSD Ports collection for the services you run, how do you deal with Ports' quarterly releases? One reason I haven't used FreeBSD much is because of the fear of doing bulk updates every 90 days, and having to fix random things that might break due to software upgrades. For a home server I have no problem with this, but if it's something I want to leave in production and have security updates for, I'm more at-ease using Debian or Ubuntu with their 3- and 5-years' worth of support. Is there something I'm missing about using FreeBSD in production, or is anything outside of the base system just supposed to be more hands-on?
- bigpeopleareold 4y ago
  I cannot say much with any confidence because I started revisiting FreeBSD after a long (like 15 years! :) ) absence. However, from what I see there are ways to mitigate issues that might occur. For example, doing a ZFS snapshot before doing a package update can be one thing to do. I think if you have a cluster of machines, doing a canary update with the option to rollback sounds like something that would ease the mind. I think also the tooling will allow you to control any bulk updating. This is in fact what I was starting to play with today - new port updates are available, how do I do selective updates? It's possible, but some reading of the handbook and/or man pages will get to that answer probably.
- cyberpunk 4y ago
  Ports are rolling release. Simply run 'portsnap fetch update' and you'll have the latest available in /usr/ports just one 'portmaster -a' (upgrade) away. Same goes for packages (pkg), they are rolling release. No idea where you're getting this 90 days release stuff from :) (Perhaps there's a LTS 'release' for ports? I don't think many people use it if there is. Trust me, you're safe enough with rolling ports).
  - just_for_you 4y ago
    See the following. There's a 'latest' branch and a 'quarterly' branch. https://wiki.freebsd.org/Ports/QuarterlyBranch https://wiki.freebsd.org/Ports/QuarterlyBranch https://pkg.freebsd.org/FreeBSD:13:amd64/ https://pkg.freebsd.org/FreeBSD:13:amd64/ https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/branches/ https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/branches/ That said, I don't have any problems with rolling-release. I've ran stuff like openSUSE Tumbleweed for years, and back in my dabbling days, plenty of Gentoo and Arch. My issue is that for non-personal and longer-term deployments, FreeBSD has never been a contender for me because of having to keep on top of Ports upgrades. For example for a project at work, I wouldn't want to return to a FreeBSD deployment months later to add a feature, and then have to update all my packages on that system. I understand chances are the upgrades would likely be hitch-free, or would only require a little bit of fixing around, but I still really don't want to hold my breath every 3 months.
  - mise_en_place 4y ago
    As a young SWE interested in IT (which is how I got interested in programming in the first place, was doing sysadmin things as a teenager like running an IRC leaf), older IT wizards told me to never mix ports and packages. And furthermore, not to use ports as they lead to fundamental breakages.
- mortenlarsen 4y ago
  FreeBSD has two repositories of packages, quarterly and latest. $ cat /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD.conf FreeBSD: { enabled: no } # disable the default config FreeBSD-latest: { url: "pkg+http://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/latest", #url: "pkg+http://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/quarterly", mirror_type: "srv", signature_type: "fingerprints", fingerprints: "/usr/share/keys/pkg", enabled: yes }
  - just_for_you 4y ago
    I'm aware of the Latest branch, but its shorter release cycle would be even less-suited for production usage (for people who are into Very Serious Business™). I was talking about Quarterly since it seems to the most stable way to get packages not in the base system.
- inferiorhuman 4y ago
  https://www.freebsd.org/security/#sup https://www.freebsd.org/security/#sup Under the current support model, each major version’s stable branch is explicitly supported for 5 years, while each individual point release is only supported for three months after the next point release. You've got plenty of time for support. These days I only use FreeBSD for homelab stuff but… yeah you can go two ways really. Portsnap + rebuilding your packages to track updates or track an official package server that gets regular updates. Because I don't have to scale this shit out the setup I ended up with was to point pkg(8) at a varnish instance that queries a "latest" repo, and then the jails hit the varnish instance. Unlike some debian-ish distros I don't think there's any security-update-only repo for ports/packages to track. Meanwhile freebsd-update(8) handles security updates for the base system.
  - just_for_you 4y ago
    Yeah, I love FreeBSD's base system's release model. It feels like a complete system, and each release is supported for a long time. Same with systems like Ports, and in particular, NetBSD's pkgsrc. I've personally been using pkgsrc on my MacBook (and sometimes on Linux too) for years, and have really enjoyed using it as a cross-platform system to add my own little packages that'll work across macOS/Linux/NetBSD (I use NetBSD on my Pi). And I have no problems doing upgrades every 3 months, since I want my shiny new software. So I definitely see and appreciate Ports/pkgsrc's benefits - but I still feel uneasy using stuff like FreeBSD+Ports on non-personal projects, like for projects at work.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      Until pkg(8) came around ports were one of my least favorite parts of FreeBSD. I like(d) pkgsrc even less. Part of it was the simplistic support for binary packages that felt entirely like an unwanted afterthought. Compile everything from source just doesn't scale especially if you want to use complex, slow-to-compile projects like gcc or firefox. The other part is that make(1) is SLOW and simply does not scale to the size of something like the ports tree. It's also a bit tedious to use out of your ports tree and the documentation was kinda meh. There were a number of hacks layered on top that sort of eased the pain (I want to say portupgrade?, I never got into portmaster) but always felt really brittle and things were always getting out of sync. Even pkg(8) is a bit funky (and I don't particularly like the reliance on srv records no matter how elegant a solution it may seem). > I still feel uneasy using stuff like FreeBSD+Ports on non-personal projects, like for projects at work. I would never use ports in a production environment without some detailed justification. The binary packages are the way to go. Building your own ports (as in your own software not building your own copy of an existing port) is also a bit of a trial by fire thing involving a lot of hair pulling. Dunno what the update quarterly stuff is about tho, I run pkg update weekly to keep on top of things – but I track the latest repo not the quarterly one. Honestly one of the few things I miss about Linux is the Debian package ecosystem. But as I learned with fink on OSX it's not just the infrastructure that matters.
jbirer 4y ago
While I have used FreeBSD before on my desktops (starting with version 8.1) and love the design of the system along with the UNIX feel, I do not really see how it can become popular with the WiFi stack in shambles (my current Intel Wireless device gets half of the speed it does on other OS) and other quirks. I feel that a lot more of the donations should go to working on FreeBSD device support if we ever to dream of it going popular.
- batman-farts 4y ago
  Despite their proclaimed support of open source, Intel wifi can be a mess on Linux too. Most distributions work well, but Gentoo for one loads the incorrect firmware blob and I am forced to try to create a custom installer image in a VM after emerging the linux-firmware package. The iwlwifi driver just landed in FreeBSD 13.1-RELEASE, and I have yet to have any luck with it there, either. Neither Gentoo nor FreeBSD seems to want to load the correct cc-a0-66.ucode blob for my AX200 chip. I think the downstream developers can only bear so much blame; Intel could surely do a better job helping to clear up edge cases like this.
hulitu 4y ago
For me the main showstopper was a system requirements doc. Last time i tried instalation failed in a VM with max number of inodes reached. I do not want to try ZFS. I want to do a quick try to see if it plays well. Can anyone recommend the minimum disk size to install the port collection and to compile for example an LXDE or KDE ?

binkHN 4y ago

> I wish FreeBSD was more popular. I run it on my personal servers for more than a decade non-stop. ... About a year ago I migrated one FreeBSD to OpenBSD... This is exactly how I feel about OpenBSD. While part of me is happy that it's a niche OS, another part of me wishes that it had more support by being a more mainstream OS.

just_for_you 4y ago

Question: If you use the FreeBSD Ports collection for the services you run, how do you deal with Ports' quarterly releases? One reason I haven't used FreeBSD much is because of the fear of doing bulk updates every 90 days, and having to fix random things that might break due to software upgrades. For a home server I have no problem with this, but if it's something I want to leave in production and have security updates for, I'm more at-ease using Debian or Ubuntu with their 3- and 5-years' worth of support. Is there something I'm missing about using FreeBSD in production, or is anything outside of the base system just supposed to be more hands-on?

bigpeopleareold 4y ago
I cannot say much with any confidence because I started revisiting FreeBSD after a long (like 15 years! :) ) absence. However, from what I see there are ways to mitigate issues that might occur. For example, doing a ZFS snapshot before doing a package update can be one thing to do. I think if you have a cluster of machines, doing a canary update with the option to rollback sounds like something that would ease the mind. I think also the tooling will allow you to control any bulk updating. This is in fact what I was starting to play with today - new port updates are available, how do I do selective updates? It's possible, but some reading of the handbook and/or man pages will get to that answer probably.
cyberpunk 4y ago
Ports are rolling release. Simply run 'portsnap fetch update' and you'll have the latest available in /usr/ports just one 'portmaster -a' (upgrade) away. Same goes for packages (pkg), they are rolling release. No idea where you're getting this 90 days release stuff from :) (Perhaps there's a LTS 'release' for ports? I don't think many people use it if there is. Trust me, you're safe enough with rolling ports).
- just_for_you 4y ago
  See the following. There's a 'latest' branch and a 'quarterly' branch. https://wiki.freebsd.org/Ports/QuarterlyBranch https://wiki.freebsd.org/Ports/QuarterlyBranch https://pkg.freebsd.org/FreeBSD:13:amd64/ https://pkg.freebsd.org/FreeBSD:13:amd64/ https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/branches/ https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/branches/ That said, I don't have any problems with rolling-release. I've ran stuff like openSUSE Tumbleweed for years, and back in my dabbling days, plenty of Gentoo and Arch. My issue is that for non-personal and longer-term deployments, FreeBSD has never been a contender for me because of having to keep on top of Ports upgrades. For example for a project at work, I wouldn't want to return to a FreeBSD deployment months later to add a feature, and then have to update all my packages on that system. I understand chances are the upgrades would likely be hitch-free, or would only require a little bit of fixing around, but I still really don't want to hold my breath every 3 months.
- mise_en_place 4y ago
  As a young SWE interested in IT (which is how I got interested in programming in the first place, was doing sysadmin things as a teenager like running an IRC leaf), older IT wizards told me to never mix ports and packages. And furthermore, not to use ports as they lead to fundamental breakages.
mortenlarsen 4y ago
FreeBSD has two repositories of packages, quarterly and latest. $ cat /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD.conf FreeBSD: { enabled: no } # disable the default config FreeBSD-latest: { url: "pkg+http://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/latest", #url: "pkg+http://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/quarterly", mirror_type: "srv", signature_type: "fingerprints", fingerprints: "/usr/share/keys/pkg", enabled: yes }
- just_for_you 4y ago
  I'm aware of the Latest branch, but its shorter release cycle would be even less-suited for production usage (for people who are into Very Serious Business™). I was talking about Quarterly since it seems to the most stable way to get packages not in the base system.
inferiorhuman 4y ago
https://www.freebsd.org/security/#sup https://www.freebsd.org/security/#sup Under the current support model, each major version’s stable branch is explicitly supported for 5 years, while each individual point release is only supported for three months after the next point release. You've got plenty of time for support. These days I only use FreeBSD for homelab stuff but… yeah you can go two ways really. Portsnap + rebuilding your packages to track updates or track an official package server that gets regular updates. Because I don't have to scale this shit out the setup I ended up with was to point pkg(8) at a varnish instance that queries a "latest" repo, and then the jails hit the varnish instance. Unlike some debian-ish distros I don't think there's any security-update-only repo for ports/packages to track. Meanwhile freebsd-update(8) handles security updates for the base system.
- just_for_you 4y ago
  Yeah, I love FreeBSD's base system's release model. It feels like a complete system, and each release is supported for a long time. Same with systems like Ports, and in particular, NetBSD's pkgsrc. I've personally been using pkgsrc on my MacBook (and sometimes on Linux too) for years, and have really enjoyed using it as a cross-platform system to add my own little packages that'll work across macOS/Linux/NetBSD (I use NetBSD on my Pi). And I have no problems doing upgrades every 3 months, since I want my shiny new software. So I definitely see and appreciate Ports/pkgsrc's benefits - but I still feel uneasy using stuff like FreeBSD+Ports on non-personal projects, like for projects at work.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    Until pkg(8) came around ports were one of my least favorite parts of FreeBSD. I like(d) pkgsrc even less. Part of it was the simplistic support for binary packages that felt entirely like an unwanted afterthought. Compile everything from source just doesn't scale especially if you want to use complex, slow-to-compile projects like gcc or firefox. The other part is that make(1) is SLOW and simply does not scale to the size of something like the ports tree. It's also a bit tedious to use out of your ports tree and the documentation was kinda meh. There were a number of hacks layered on top that sort of eased the pain (I want to say portupgrade?, I never got into portmaster) but always felt really brittle and things were always getting out of sync. Even pkg(8) is a bit funky (and I don't particularly like the reliance on srv records no matter how elegant a solution it may seem). > I still feel uneasy using stuff like FreeBSD+Ports on non-personal projects, like for projects at work. I would never use ports in a production environment without some detailed justification. The binary packages are the way to go. Building your own ports (as in your own software not building your own copy of an existing port) is also a bit of a trial by fire thing involving a lot of hair pulling. Dunno what the update quarterly stuff is about tho, I run pkg update weekly to keep on top of things – but I track the latest repo not the quarterly one. Honestly one of the few things I miss about Linux is the Debian package ecosystem. But as I learned with fink on OSX it's not just the infrastructure that matters.

jbirer 4y ago

While I have used FreeBSD before on my desktops (starting with version 8.1) and love the design of the system along with the UNIX feel, I do not really see how it can become popular with the WiFi stack in shambles (my current Intel Wireless device gets half of the speed it does on other OS) and other quirks. I feel that a lot more of the donations should go to working on FreeBSD device support if we ever to dream of it going popular.

batman-farts 4y ago
Despite their proclaimed support of open source, Intel wifi can be a mess on Linux too. Most distributions work well, but Gentoo for one loads the incorrect firmware blob and I am forced to try to create a custom installer image in a VM after emerging the linux-firmware package. The iwlwifi driver just landed in FreeBSD 13.1-RELEASE, and I have yet to have any luck with it there, either. Neither Gentoo nor FreeBSD seems to want to load the correct cc-a0-66.ucode blob for my AX200 chip. I think the downstream developers can only bear so much blame; Intel could surely do a better job helping to clear up edge cases like this.

hulitu 4y ago

For me the main showstopper was a system requirements doc. Last time i tried instalation failed in a VM with max number of inodes reached. I do not want to try ZFS. I want to do a quick try to see if it plays well. Can anyone recommend the minimum disk size to install the port collection and to compile for example an LXDE or KDE ?