6 ms·

Paint = safety is a horribly misguided heuristic. Playing traffic engineer is just as bad an idea as playing dentist or attorney. Just don’t.

onphonenow 4y ago
Exactly. The standard heuristic is to put the paint down AFTER increasing safety through OTHER measures. Crosswalks are literally used as a signal to pedestrians that this is a recommended crossing point that probably meets standards (that make it very likely a driver would be entirely at fault if they hit you crossing there but also very possible for them to avoid hitting you if they are following the law).
- clairity 4y ago
  the guide has a section on "How to select an intersection", which considers the other measures like a stop sign and a limit line (common at LA intersections, but not universal). note that pedestrians have right-of-way at every intersection unless explicitly marked otherwise, regardless of crosswalk markings, so drivers should be looking for pedestrians at every intersection.
  - whateveracct 4y ago
    I think this all falls under "playing traffic engineer"
    - IshKebab 4y ago
      Traffic engineers don't have magical abilities. It's not rocket science to select a crossing location. I seriously doubt most traffic changes are even modelled properly. In the UK they still rely on road tubes to count traffic and I don't know if they've even considered networking traffic lights yet (maybe in London).
      - mhb 4y ago
        No doubt traffic engineers say the same thing about building web sites.
        IshKebab 4y ago
        Are you suggesting that non-professionals are not capable of making simple websites?
        mhb 4y ago
        I'm suggesting that whenever you think "it's not rocket science" is an appropriate criticism of someone else's thinking, you should consider whether you are looking at one of Chesterton's fences.
        IshKebab 4y ago
        Ah the old "you probably don't know what you're talking about" fallacies. Trying to make a compelling argument using Chesterton's fence is classic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
        mhb 4y ago
        Aren't you clever knowing all the hip kid memes? However, I'm not asserting I know more than you about traffic engineering. Just that traffic engineers do.
        IshKebab 4y ago
        You're not asserting that traffic engineers know more about traffic engineering than me. You're asserting that I know so little about traffic engineering that I couldn't put a crossing in a sensible place (because there's some mysterious uber-knowledge required to do it that only professional traffic engineers possess).
        4y ago
  - mikhailfranco 4y ago
    The right of way for pedestrians at intersections was recently added to the UK 'Highway Code': https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/29/highway-code-update-comes-into-force-in-england-scotland-and-wales https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/29/highway-code...
mike_d 4y ago
Yup. They aren't going to be super jazzed when someone adds "Speed Limit 60 MPH" signs in retaliation.
blenderdt 4y ago
Also in most countries paint is just a visual sign not a legal one. The signs before a crosswalk are the legal ones. The paint will not be visible in rain or snow for example.
londons_explore 4y ago
When a real traffic engineer comes along, how many of these crosswalks end up being kept, and how many removed? I suspect that many may be kept because it's a good plan to have a crosswalk there, but traffic engineers don't have enough time or budget to make all the changes to the road they'd like to.
occz 4y ago
> Playing traffic engineer is just as bad an idea as playing dentist or attorney. Given the absolutely abysmal track record of traffic engineers in the U.S as far as pedestrian safety goes, I hardly think you could do any worse by trying to do their job for them.
7952 4y ago
I think building up expertise and understanding at a lower level is brilliant. Brushing your teeth is important (to stretch your comparison). There are implicit assumptions in highway standards that people don't really understand. Engineers balance cost, safety, traffic flow, pedestrian flow etc. It is optimal within a particular set of assumptions about those things. The public should have more power to influence that balance at a local level. I agree that this was misguided, but the impulse is good. Ideally we would have simple apps that could help people plan transport in their communities and understand the risks better. The problem of badly designed roads is too large to be solved by highway engineers alone. And the fact that we have so many terrible roads is not a good indorsement of the status quo.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  > Engineers balance cost, safety, traffic flow And they generally don't wanna talk about it because lord knows a subset of the public throws a fit once you start trying to draw a line in the safety sand.
  - 7952 4y ago
    It's understandable though. These are inherently political questions and people are locked out of that process. And there really isn't an objective solution to balancing those factors I have worked in air quality assessment and you see something similar. A single development usually has statistically negligible effect on air quality. No measurable impact on health. But that isn't really the whole story. Vehicle exhaust absolutely does effect health. It is understandable that people object to that on a specific case by case basis even when tacitly consenting at a societal level But mostly I think safety is used as a proxy for other things. Adding a lane to a highway can have a safety justification even when the real purpose is something else. Everyone is lazy, and the degree we allow a sense of entitlement changes over time.
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  Traffic engineers consistently prioritize traffic flow above all else. Civil disobedience is one of the few tools pedestrians have to fight back.
_the_inflator 4y ago
It can be dangerous, too. For example if an accident happens, a false sign could harm your otherwise legitimate claims. I see the moral idea and simplicity behind it, however not quite sure about law.
- ithkuil 4y ago
  Surely if you're not aware that the sign is fake you shouldn't be punished because somebody installed a fake sign right?
  - pas 4y ago
    it seems that these painted ones act as real ones https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=275 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio.... (so what I'm trying to say - even though I'm a complete layman - is that from the "personal injury" aspect every painted crosswalk is a real one)
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Thank you for perfectly encapsulating a large part of why municipalities can't get anything done for a reasonable price these days. There's a lot of "copy paste engineering" that anyone with a little care can do with an acceptable success rate but we prevent them from doing "because liability". So then we go engage the services of an engineering firm which does the copy paste, makes the client sign some boilerplate that disclaims most of the liability anyway and charges a lot of money for the privilege.

onphonenow 4y ago

Exactly. The standard heuristic is to put the paint down AFTER increasing safety through OTHER measures. Crosswalks are literally used as a signal to pedestrians that this is a recommended crossing point that probably meets standards (that make it very likely a driver would be entirely at fault if they hit you crossing there but also very possible for them to avoid hitting you if they are following the law).

clairity 4y ago
the guide has a section on "How to select an intersection", which considers the other measures like a stop sign and a limit line (common at LA intersections, but not universal). note that pedestrians have right-of-way at every intersection unless explicitly marked otherwise, regardless of crosswalk markings, so drivers should be looking for pedestrians at every intersection.
- whateveracct 4y ago
  I think this all falls under "playing traffic engineer"
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    Traffic engineers don't have magical abilities. It's not rocket science to select a crossing location. I seriously doubt most traffic changes are even modelled properly. In the UK they still rely on road tubes to count traffic and I don't know if they've even considered networking traffic lights yet (maybe in London).
    - mhb 4y ago
      No doubt traffic engineers say the same thing about building web sites.
      - IshKebab 4y ago
        Are you suggesting that non-professionals are not capable of making simple websites?
        mhb 4y ago
        I'm suggesting that whenever you think "it's not rocket science" is an appropriate criticism of someone else's thinking, you should consider whether you are looking at one of Chesterton's fences.
        IshKebab 4y ago
        Ah the old "you probably don't know what you're talking about" fallacies. Trying to make a compelling argument using Chesterton's fence is classic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
        mhb 4y ago
        Aren't you clever knowing all the hip kid memes? However, I'm not asserting I know more than you about traffic engineering. Just that traffic engineers do.
        IshKebab 4y ago
        You're not asserting that traffic engineers know more about traffic engineering than me. You're asserting that I know so little about traffic engineering that I couldn't put a crossing in a sensible place (because there's some mysterious uber-knowledge required to do it that only professional traffic engineers possess).
        4y ago
- mikhailfranco 4y ago
  The right of way for pedestrians at intersections was recently added to the UK 'Highway Code': https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/29/highway-code-update-comes-into-force-in-england-scotland-and-wales https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/29/highway-code...

mike_d 4y ago

Yup. They aren't going to be super jazzed when someone adds "Speed Limit 60 MPH" signs in retaliation.

blenderdt 4y ago

Also in most countries paint is just a visual sign not a legal one. The signs before a crosswalk are the legal ones. The paint will not be visible in rain or snow for example.

londons_explore 4y ago

When a real traffic engineer comes along, how many of these crosswalks end up being kept, and how many removed? I suspect that many may be kept because it's a good plan to have a crosswalk there, but traffic engineers don't have enough time or budget to make all the changes to the road they'd like to.

occz 4y ago

> Playing traffic engineer is just as bad an idea as playing dentist or attorney. Given the absolutely abysmal track record of traffic engineers in the U.S as far as pedestrian safety goes, I hardly think you could do any worse by trying to do their job for them.

7952 4y ago

I think building up expertise and understanding at a lower level is brilliant. Brushing your teeth is important (to stretch your comparison). There are implicit assumptions in highway standards that people don't really understand. Engineers balance cost, safety, traffic flow, pedestrian flow etc. It is optimal within a particular set of assumptions about those things. The public should have more power to influence that balance at a local level. I agree that this was misguided, but the impulse is good. Ideally we would have simple apps that could help people plan transport in their communities and understand the risks better. The problem of badly designed roads is too large to be solved by highway engineers alone. And the fact that we have so many terrible roads is not a good indorsement of the status quo.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
> Engineers balance cost, safety, traffic flow And they generally don't wanna talk about it because lord knows a subset of the public throws a fit once you start trying to draw a line in the safety sand.
- 7952 4y ago
  It's understandable though. These are inherently political questions and people are locked out of that process. And there really isn't an objective solution to balancing those factors I have worked in air quality assessment and you see something similar. A single development usually has statistically negligible effect on air quality. No measurable impact on health. But that isn't really the whole story. Vehicle exhaust absolutely does effect health. It is understandable that people object to that on a specific case by case basis even when tacitly consenting at a societal level But mostly I think safety is used as a proxy for other things. Adding a lane to a highway can have a safety justification even when the real purpose is something else. Everyone is lazy, and the degree we allow a sense of entitlement changes over time.
TheCoelacanth 4y ago
Traffic engineers consistently prioritize traffic flow above all else. Civil disobedience is one of the few tools pedestrians have to fight back.

_the_inflator 4y ago

It can be dangerous, too. For example if an accident happens, a false sign could harm your otherwise legitimate claims. I see the moral idea and simplicity behind it, however not quite sure about law.

ithkuil 4y ago
Surely if you're not aware that the sign is fake you shouldn't be punished because somebody installed a fake sign right?
- pas 4y ago
  it seems that these painted ones act as real ones https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=275 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio.... (so what I'm trying to say - even though I'm a complete layman - is that from the "personal injury" aspect every painted crosswalk is a real one)

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

Thank you for perfectly encapsulating a large part of why municipalities can't get anything done for a reasonable price these days. There's a lot of "copy paste engineering" that anyone with a little care can do with an acceptable success rate but we prevent them from doing "because liability". So then we go engage the services of an engineering firm which does the copy paste, makes the client sign some boilerplate that disclaims most of the liability anyway and charges a lot of money for the privilege.