8 ms·

I know this gets asked a lot and isn't really about this new upgraded model but.. Any news on plans for AMD models?

coder543 4y ago
Framework has said many times that they won't discuss future product plans. I doubt they want to experience the Osborne Effect.
- samtheprogram 4y ago
  Osborne Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect
capableweb 4y ago
> Any news on plans for AMD models? This is the only thing stopping me from getting a Framework laptop right now. I'd pay a premium for it as well.
- hericium 4y ago
  Pre-Pluton chips, though.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Why is AMD so important to you? Are there any instruction set extensions these days that are only available on AMD? I can only think of things that are the other way around - only on Intel. And if you need something niche like some SIMD extension I guess you're running a server not a laptop?
  - mhitza 4y ago
    Because at the moment AMD is the least scummy of the two x86 chip manufacturers. Intel as the only feasible player in town for a good segment of time, asked premium prices for meager performance increases, generation by generation. Mainly is just out of principle and voting with my wallet.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
      I was choosing AMD even when they didn't have the better processors on the market, for this very reason.
    - Teknoman117 4y ago
      Exactly. If we're going to be told to vote with our wallets all the time, you better let me vote with my wallet. I bought an ASUS ZenBook earlier this year because as much as I like Framework's product, I don't want to give Intel another dollar after they bent me over a barrel for a decade.
  - dont__panic 4y ago
    I think it goes something like this: - no Management Engine - chips that don't turbo boost themselves into throttling - not supporting a company with a toxic approach to business I believe AMD outperforms Intel when you're targeting mobile performance/battery life, rather than "moar CPU" workloads. Though that might change now that Intel is using their own approach to performance cores. Still, given the last decade of Intel development, they don't exactly have my trust that they'll execute performance cores without serious hiccups.
    - fsflover 4y ago
      > no Management Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_PSP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_PSP
      - sascha_sl 4y ago
        The PSP is a lot slimmer than Intel ME. It also doesn't randomly yank traffic for specific ports from your Ethernet.
        fsflover 4y ago
        Any good link with the details?
        sascha_sl 4y ago
        There was a good talk with an overview (as well as owning it) at 36c3. https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_-_regaining_control_over_your_amd_cpu https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_-_r...
        trinsic2 4y ago
        I havent looked at the presentation yet, but are you saying the PSP, like intels ME could be doing nefarious things since its proprietary and closed? Do you have a link to information on the network capturing thing? I mean is that really a thing? I have heard of these things before but I am not quite sure what the possibilities are. Do you have a link that can summarize what this actual means in terms of security concerns?
  - Markoff 4y ago
    I'd guess much better VFM.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    It's simply a political/better CPU market perspective. Intel had the entire market for so long, and therefore stopped improving. They are getting some fire behind their behind-parts now, but that took a good while. I'm cheering and voting with my wallet for the underdog in the market to make the whole market more competitive. At least that's what I like to believe.
  - quantumfissure 4y ago
    Better power handling per performance ratio, at least when compared to previous Intel generations. Better integrated graphics, especially with the upcoming line, if what AMD says holds true. Non-toxic approach to business. Dr. Lisa Su has done incredible things with that company, and I'll happily support a group that recognizes the need for experience in top tech positions vs. MBAs/Lawyers/Fund Managers/etc...
    - csdreamer7 4y ago
      Yep, the 6000 series has RDNA2 graphics.
    - sascha_sl 4y ago
      > Non-toxic approach to business. Unfortunately it seems the pendulum swings on this one at least a bit. Unless you want a flagship CPU, you'll wait a good half year to a year to get half as much choice of budget CPUs with rather extreme handicap (cache). Also half of them are OEM only. Try to find a good current gen CPU for a small to mid sized NAS in their lineup, it's not easy.
      - kouteiheika 4y ago
        > Unless you want a flagship CPU Even if you want a flagship CPU; e.g. see the newest 5xxx series Threadrippers which were only released after a year and half and even then they are only available in overpriced e-waste systems from Lenovo where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard and won't work anywhere else. AMD is not your friend. Just like every other huge corporation.
        mrtranscendence 4y ago
        It's relative. AMD is "your friend" as long as it's on the back foot, so to speak. Their GPU pricing remains much better than Nvidia's, even with the extreme availability issues over the past two years, and some of their actions on the GPU side are more consumer-friendly (such as offering open-source Linux drivers). But when in a more favorable position with respect to their competitor their behavior can and does change. > where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard Don't quote me on this, but I think I heard that this wasn't on by default?
  - freeopinion 4y ago
    Why is Intel 12th Gen more important? AMD is important for multiple reasons. First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the most requested feature for the Framework. Second, many people perceive that AMD outperforms Intel. Third, many people think it is extremely important to reward positive competition in the market place. Eighth, it would truly, truly prove the upgradeability and versatility of the Framework. Then we could move on to imagining dual^H^H^H^Hquad-Arm boards and RISCV boards and other fantasies.
    - dathinab 4y ago
      > First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the most requested feature for the Framework. I would argue one of the most glaring problems with selling Framework laptops was that they where "still" on Intel 11th Gen hardware which is often perceived as "not so grate" of a choice. I'm sure they would love to also ship AMD based mobos (and Arm too) but it needs to be profitable, i.e. the additional sales gained through also supporting AMD must outclass the higher logistic cost as well as higher development cost. This might not seem like a big deal but from the little experience I have with logistics and things like maintaining Intel and AMD BIOS support, still having pressure to also ship a faster Intel mother board etc. I highly duped this makes any sense at this point in time. Also, yes many people perceive AMD outperforms Intel, but many also perceive the opposite! Sure competition is grate, but Framework is not yet a well established company. Lastly I don't think they need to technically prove that upgrading to AMD or ARM is possible, the problem is not technology but logistics, resources (BIOS maintenance, testing, etc), supply-chains and potentially shitty contracts and practices by Intel (and other Companies). So IMHO they need to first establish themself well, and then branch out.
  - Teknoman117 4y ago
    Voting with my wallet. Intel bent everyone over a barrel for a decade and I don't want to give them another dollar if I can avoid it.
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    > Why is AMD so important to you? Not the GP, but here's my reason: For dGPUs, I strongly prefer AMD over nVidia because of Linux driver support. In recent years, most laptops with an AMD dGPU have AMD CPUs. It's possible that my calculus will change in the next few years. E.g., if any of these things come to market: - good laptop with Intel CPU and AMD dGPU - AMD CPU with a fast iGPU. (I know these are in the pipeline, but I'm waiting for benchmarks.) - Intel's upcoming laptop iGPUs / dGPUs perform well and have good Linux drivers. - nVidia's efforts to open-source parts of their Linux drivers address my personal pain points.
    - xd1936 4y ago
      Sure, but none of these affect the Framework Laptop. This computer does not have discrete graphics.
  - lhl 4y ago
    For me personally, my preference primarily comes down to extreme differences in low-intensity/idle power usage of Ryzen 6000 vs Intel 12th gen. There aren't true "apples to apples" (same chassis/model, but AMD vs Intel) comparisons yet, although those should be coming in the next month or so, but here's an example of how efficient the Ryzen 6000s are: https://youtu.be/3bSetglEPOY?t=170 https://youtu.be/3bSetglEPOY?t=170 For people that need to use their devices on the go, I think it's a no brainer to prefer a Ryzen 6000 vs Intel. The RDNA2-based Radeon 680M iGPU also significantly outperforms the (admittedly, much improved) Intel Xe iGPUs in 3D rendering. In synthetics, the new Radeon iGPUs are going head to head with Nvidia 1650 Max-Q dGPUs. This probably doesn't much matter if you aren't doing any gaming, but if you are, it means you can play most modern titles reasonably on the road in a thin and light form factor without giving up any battery life when you aren't.
  - jotm 4y ago
    AMD offers higher performance, better thermals and arguably better integrated graphics for the price. Plus they made Intel drop their prices by ~50% since launching Ryzen, for which they deserve the money :)
simonh 4y ago
Does anyone know if the Framework laptop use a mainboard form factor that is available with AMD chips? The modularity of some components can be assumed because they are industry standards, like wifi modules I suppose. Other components perhaps Framework have designed their own range of modules with a common form factor, but it must be very expensive to engineer a compatible mainboard in the same form factor with a different chipset, unless they are using an existing standardised design.
- Sebb767 4y ago
  I'm not totally sure, but I think their mainboard is of their own design. They would need to adapt, but they could do it. I also think the differences are not too large, since most mainboard manufacturers offer surprisingly similar mainboards for either brand.
criddell 4y ago
Why AMD? Why is there so little interest in ARM-based Linux laptops? Does AMD (or Intel) have anything even close in performance / watt that one can get from an ARM-based system?
- nicoburns 4y ago
  AMD and Intel both have processors that perform much better than anything ARM-based except Apple's M1 processors (which of course nobody else has access to). That might change once Qualcomm release the new design they are supposedly working on, but that's not available yet.
  - criddell 4y ago
    I was thinking recent CPUs in the Exynos line were supposed to be pretty good. I never realized Apple was that far ahead...
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      I think Apple's chips aren't that far off being twice as fast as Exynos chips in single-core performance. Whereas the latest AMD and Intel chips are more or less on a par. https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-vs-samsung_exynos_990 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...
      - criddell 4y ago
        The 990 is pretty old. I think the latest is the 2200. https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-vs-samsung_exynos_2200 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...
        mrtranscendence 4y ago
        The A14 is a generation old at this point. This is a more relevant comparison: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a15_bionic_5_gpu-vs-samsung_exynos_2200 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a15_bionic_5...
robotnikman 4y ago
I think the main issue with AMD might be they lack support for Thunderbolt (last I've heard anyways)

Framework has said many times that they won't discuss future product plans. I doubt they want to experience the Osborne Effect.

samtheprogram 4y ago
Osborne Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

capableweb 4y ago

> Any news on plans for AMD models? This is the only thing stopping me from getting a Framework laptop right now. I'd pay a premium for it as well.

hericium 4y ago
Pre-Pluton chips, though.
chrisseaton 4y ago
Why is AMD so important to you? Are there any instruction set extensions these days that are only available on AMD? I can only think of things that are the other way around - only on Intel. And if you need something niche like some SIMD extension I guess you're running a server not a laptop?
- mhitza 4y ago
  Because at the moment AMD is the least scummy of the two x86 chip manufacturers. Intel as the only feasible player in town for a good segment of time, asked premium prices for meager performance increases, generation by generation. Mainly is just out of principle and voting with my wallet.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    I was choosing AMD even when they didn't have the better processors on the market, for this very reason.
  - Teknoman117 4y ago
    Exactly. If we're going to be told to vote with our wallets all the time, you better let me vote with my wallet. I bought an ASUS ZenBook earlier this year because as much as I like Framework's product, I don't want to give Intel another dollar after they bent me over a barrel for a decade.
- dont__panic 4y ago
  I think it goes something like this: - no Management Engine - chips that don't turbo boost themselves into throttling - not supporting a company with a toxic approach to business I believe AMD outperforms Intel when you're targeting mobile performance/battery life, rather than "moar CPU" workloads. Though that might change now that Intel is using their own approach to performance cores. Still, given the last decade of Intel development, they don't exactly have my trust that they'll execute performance cores without serious hiccups.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    > no Management Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_PSP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_PSP
    - sascha_sl 4y ago
      The PSP is a lot slimmer than Intel ME. It also doesn't randomly yank traffic for specific ports from your Ethernet.
      - fsflover 4y ago
        Any good link with the details?
        sascha_sl 4y ago
        There was a good talk with an overview (as well as owning it) at 36c3. https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_-_regaining_control_over_your_amd_cpu https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_-_r...
      - trinsic2 4y ago
        I havent looked at the presentation yet, but are you saying the PSP, like intels ME could be doing nefarious things since its proprietary and closed? Do you have a link to information on the network capturing thing? I mean is that really a thing? I have heard of these things before but I am not quite sure what the possibilities are. Do you have a link that can summarize what this actual means in terms of security concerns?
- Markoff 4y ago
  I'd guess much better VFM.
- capableweb 4y ago
  It's simply a political/better CPU market perspective. Intel had the entire market for so long, and therefore stopped improving. They are getting some fire behind their behind-parts now, but that took a good while. I'm cheering and voting with my wallet for the underdog in the market to make the whole market more competitive. At least that's what I like to believe.
- quantumfissure 4y ago
  Better power handling per performance ratio, at least when compared to previous Intel generations. Better integrated graphics, especially with the upcoming line, if what AMD says holds true. Non-toxic approach to business. Dr. Lisa Su has done incredible things with that company, and I'll happily support a group that recognizes the need for experience in top tech positions vs. MBAs/Lawyers/Fund Managers/etc...
  - csdreamer7 4y ago
    Yep, the 6000 series has RDNA2 graphics.
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    > Non-toxic approach to business. Unfortunately it seems the pendulum swings on this one at least a bit. Unless you want a flagship CPU, you'll wait a good half year to a year to get half as much choice of budget CPUs with rather extreme handicap (cache). Also half of them are OEM only. Try to find a good current gen CPU for a small to mid sized NAS in their lineup, it's not easy.
    - kouteiheika 4y ago
      > Unless you want a flagship CPU Even if you want a flagship CPU; e.g. see the newest 5xxx series Threadrippers which were only released after a year and half and even then they are only available in overpriced e-waste systems from Lenovo where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard and won't work anywhere else. AMD is not your friend. Just like every other huge corporation.
      - mrtranscendence 4y ago
        It's relative. AMD is "your friend" as long as it's on the back foot, so to speak. Their GPU pricing remains much better than Nvidia's, even with the extreme availability issues over the past two years, and some of their actions on the GPU side are more consumer-friendly (such as offering open-source Linux drivers). But when in a more favorable position with respect to their competitor their behavior can and does change. > where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard Don't quote me on this, but I think I heard that this wasn't on by default?
- freeopinion 4y ago
  Why is Intel 12th Gen more important? AMD is important for multiple reasons. First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the most requested feature for the Framework. Second, many people perceive that AMD outperforms Intel. Third, many people think it is extremely important to reward positive competition in the market place. Eighth, it would truly, truly prove the upgradeability and versatility of the Framework. Then we could move on to imagining dual^H^H^H^Hquad-Arm boards and RISCV boards and other fantasies.
  - dathinab 4y ago
    > First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the most requested feature for the Framework. I would argue one of the most glaring problems with selling Framework laptops was that they where "still" on Intel 11th Gen hardware which is often perceived as "not so grate" of a choice. I'm sure they would love to also ship AMD based mobos (and Arm too) but it needs to be profitable, i.e. the additional sales gained through also supporting AMD must outclass the higher logistic cost as well as higher development cost. This might not seem like a big deal but from the little experience I have with logistics and things like maintaining Intel and AMD BIOS support, still having pressure to also ship a faster Intel mother board etc. I highly duped this makes any sense at this point in time. Also, yes many people perceive AMD outperforms Intel, but many also perceive the opposite! Sure competition is grate, but Framework is not yet a well established company. Lastly I don't think they need to technically prove that upgrading to AMD or ARM is possible, the problem is not technology but logistics, resources (BIOS maintenance, testing, etc), supply-chains and potentially shitty contracts and practices by Intel (and other Companies). So IMHO they need to first establish themself well, and then branch out.
- Teknoman117 4y ago
  Voting with my wallet. Intel bent everyone over a barrel for a decade and I don't want to give them another dollar if I can avoid it.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  > Why is AMD so important to you? Not the GP, but here's my reason: For dGPUs, I strongly prefer AMD over nVidia because of Linux driver support. In recent years, most laptops with an AMD dGPU have AMD CPUs. It's possible that my calculus will change in the next few years. E.g., if any of these things come to market: - good laptop with Intel CPU and AMD dGPU - AMD CPU with a fast iGPU. (I know these are in the pipeline, but I'm waiting for benchmarks.) - Intel's upcoming laptop iGPUs / dGPUs perform well and have good Linux drivers. - nVidia's efforts to open-source parts of their Linux drivers address my personal pain points.
  - xd1936 4y ago
    Sure, but none of these affect the Framework Laptop. This computer does not have discrete graphics.
- lhl 4y ago
  For me personally, my preference primarily comes down to extreme differences in low-intensity/idle power usage of Ryzen 6000 vs Intel 12th gen. There aren't true "apples to apples" (same chassis/model, but AMD vs Intel) comparisons yet, although those should be coming in the next month or so, but here's an example of how efficient the Ryzen 6000s are: https://youtu.be/3bSetglEPOY?t=170 https://youtu.be/3bSetglEPOY?t=170 For people that need to use their devices on the go, I think it's a no brainer to prefer a Ryzen 6000 vs Intel. The RDNA2-based Radeon 680M iGPU also significantly outperforms the (admittedly, much improved) Intel Xe iGPUs in 3D rendering. In synthetics, the new Radeon iGPUs are going head to head with Nvidia 1650 Max-Q dGPUs. This probably doesn't much matter if you aren't doing any gaming, but if you are, it means you can play most modern titles reasonably on the road in a thin and light form factor without giving up any battery life when you aren't.
- jotm 4y ago
  AMD offers higher performance, better thermals and arguably better integrated graphics for the price. Plus they made Intel drop their prices by ~50% since launching Ryzen, for which they deserve the money :)

simonh 4y ago

Does anyone know if the Framework laptop use a mainboard form factor that is available with AMD chips? The modularity of some components can be assumed because they are industry standards, like wifi modules I suppose. Other components perhaps Framework have designed their own range of modules with a common form factor, but it must be very expensive to engineer a compatible mainboard in the same form factor with a different chipset, unless they are using an existing standardised design.

Sebb767 4y ago
I'm not totally sure, but I think their mainboard is of their own design. They would need to adapt, but they could do it. I also think the differences are not too large, since most mainboard manufacturers offer surprisingly similar mainboards for either brand.

criddell 4y ago

Why AMD? Why is there so little interest in ARM-based Linux laptops? Does AMD (or Intel) have anything even close in performance / watt that one can get from an ARM-based system?

nicoburns 4y ago
AMD and Intel both have processors that perform much better than anything ARM-based except Apple's M1 processors (which of course nobody else has access to). That might change once Qualcomm release the new design they are supposedly working on, but that's not available yet.
- criddell 4y ago
  I was thinking recent CPUs in the Exynos line were supposed to be pretty good. I never realized Apple was that far ahead...
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    I think Apple's chips aren't that far off being twice as fast as Exynos chips in single-core performance. Whereas the latest AMD and Intel chips are more or less on a par. https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-vs-samsung_exynos_990 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...
    - criddell 4y ago
      The 990 is pretty old. I think the latest is the 2200. https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-vs-samsung_exynos_2200 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...
      - mrtranscendence 4y ago
        The A14 is a generation old at this point. This is a more relevant comparison: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a15_bionic_5_gpu-vs-samsung_exynos_2200 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a15_bionic_5...

robotnikman 4y ago

I think the main issue with AMD might be they lack support for Thunderbolt (last I've heard anyways)