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I grew up in suburban Midwest America. Monoculture is great if you're aligned with the monoculture, but it's quite miserable if you're unwilling or unable to co

I grew up in suburban Midwest America. Monoculture is great if you're aligned with the monoculture, but it's quite miserable if you're unwilling or unable to conform. I went on to start my career on the east coast over 25 years ago, and then the west coast (Boston / SF / SEA / LA). I'm now back in a Midwestern monoculture community because of family. It's not an easy cultural adjustment if you've acclimated to something that's not monoculture. In my case, the appeal of large city blended culture is that (1) I can find my tribe much more easily and (2) the tribes all have to get along because there's no dominant tribe enforcing its norms on the others. (There's obviously generalization in this statement, but I'd argue that relative to a monoculture community that these things are more truth than not. SF, SEA and others have plenty of challenges, but IMHO it's in part because they've become monocultures, or at least tech has become the dominant tribe and asserts its will on other cultures.) If you enjoy living in the monoculture you occupy, there's no reason to leave. Visiting or temporarily living in blended cultures will not feel better to you, as it causes more stress than where you came from. But it's very presumptuous to assume that others would find living in "flyover" country better than the life they currently lead.

rayiner 4y ago
> grew up in suburban Midwest America. Monoculture is great if you're aligned with the monoculture, but it's quite miserable if you're unwilling or unable to conform. The conformity is kind of the point and makes it better for the rest of us.
- dylan604 4y ago
  And there it is! We only want ourselves to be comfy, but nobody cares what effect it has on anyone else. Just as long as everyone conforms to your way of thinking. I really don't care if you want to live an limited life experience and assume it is the only possible way of life. But when you start telling other people that they must live like you want them to because they want to live in the same area you do is just too much to take. It doesn't truly affect you other than you have to accept something you don't agree.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    > In small town USA, the local culture usually is inferior. > And there it is! We only want ourselves to be comfy, but nobody cares what effect it has on anyone else. Just as long as everyone conforms to your way of thinking. Can you please lower the rhetorical temperature? > But when you start telling other people that they must live like you want them to because they want to live in the same area you do is just too much to take. There's plenty of cultural orthodoxy in cities as well, it's probably just more agreeable to you.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      > There's plenty of cultural orthodoxy in cities as well, it's probably just more agreeable to you. What are you referring to? In large cities, you can think and do what you want and nobody will much care or notice unless you force them to.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        I’ve seen people accosted in public for wearing conservative political t-shirts or hats on multiple occasions in Chicago. It was pretty frothing there from 2016 to 2020, and I’m not even a conservative.
        wolverine876 4y ago
        Wow, never seen it in a city, and I've been around plenty. You see the absolute craziest things in cities and nobody even notices - it's part of the culture. It's a running joke.
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        I notice people yelling at strangers (there’s also a whole bunch of videos of people being jumped for wearing clothes that signal conservativism, but I haven’t seen that up close), but a much less extreme example is just gender stuff: my wife and I have a pretty traditional division of labor (by happenstance, not design, although it doesn’t matter for the purposes of this discussion) and we get some funny looks/remarks from a lot of people. It would be simpler if I were passionate about cooking and my wife was the breadwinner and finance manager, but we still have it better than people who are actually conservative.
- didibus 4y ago
  That's an interesting viewpoint. So the conformity somehow makes you less nervous or anxious? Does it bring you a sense of safety and comfort? I'm just really curious what you like about it? For me conformity has always just been boring and restricting, and I consider it an all around negative. I like to try new things, and I live to experience as much of what life can bring as I can. So I find the idea of artificially restricting ones options on how to dress, sing, what to eat, how to dance, what to make of art, what stories you can tell, how to make love, how to play, how to express yourself, what to talk about, who you can be with, what games are allowed, what you're supposed to do on Sunday morning, etc. just an all around negative. It feels like a choke hold on my life, which is the most precious thing I have, so restrictions on the extent of how much I'm allowed to live and experience seem completely unreasonable and oppressive to me. But I'm a pretty confident and courageous person, I don't have anxieties, and I enjoy getting out of my comfort zone and trying new things, learning, discovery, are all things I'm drawn too. I know people who aren't like that, have more anxieties, so I never really thought that for them maybe conformity was like a relief, a way to take out a source of stress of the unknown with clear strict rules and conventions that they can rely on.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Not really any of those things. Conformity increases social trust and reduces social transaction costs; it yields non-zero sum returns to social efficiency for the same reason standardization often does. There is a reason societies closer to the edge of survival are more rigidly conformist. It’s not because Bangladeshis or Africans are dumb or backward, but because your typical third world village would quickly die of starvation if you ran it like a California college. Restriction of choice can likewise be welfare maximizing. People’s brains aren’t fully developed until 25. Which is remarkable if you think about it. People spend a third of their lives walking around without all their faculties. And even after that most people have trouble making good decisions. Not just dumb people, but nearly everyone. Why are there fat doctors and nurses? Rigid social norms can help people make better decisions, especially the people who need the most help with that. Again, there is a reason individual choice is emphasized almost solely in societies rich enough to afford letting people make mistakes.
- astura 4y ago
- cortesoft 4y ago
  The cost of conformity is not the same for everyone. It might be easy if your natural state is fairly close to the norm you are conforming to. It is a lot worse if your natural state is in direct contradiction to the norm. It is easy for someone who is fairly close and doesn’t have to adjust much to say that the cost of conformity is worth it for the gain.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > The conformity is kind of the point and makes it better for the rest of us. The 'rest of us' being people outside the monoculture? Things aren't so good there. Conformity limits people's freedom, often greatly, often in very fundamental ways. People can't chose their religion, sexual orientation, politics, interests, career, etc. You are free to chose conformity if you like, but the problem is that conformity is forced on others.
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    What's ironic of course is that the comment comes from an immigrant to the US. Though one who's proved quite hostile to other cultures and practices.
  - jimmygrapes 4y ago
    For those outside of the monoculture, the non conformists, why? I don't mean what makes you (nb: using the term you in the general sense) different, I mean why? And then, why are you so certain that your difference or reasons for that difference is somehow better? I can extrapolate that most answers will be things like "LGBTQIAPP+" or based on externalities like skin color, but those are low hanging (and imo pretty bland) fruits. Other answers might be religion (or rejection thereof), or taste in music, or general youthful rebellion/contrarianism. Yet other answers might be entirely unimaginable to me. But my question remains: why are you this way and why do you think it's a better way to be than the majority? What factors external to the conformist group contributed or influenced you, if any? For the record, I, too, have fled regions and communities, both physical and virtual, where I was a deviant. I asked myself these questions and I have answers if anyone were to ask. I'm just curious what answers others have come up with, and whether they have ever asked themselves those same questions. I'm also curious if others have found their own answers lacking and how that is handled.
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      > I can extrapolate that most answers will be things like "LGBTQIAPP+" or based on externalities like skin color, but those are low hanging (and imo pretty bland) fruits. They are overwhelming, brutal, oppressive experiences of millions of people. Not bland, but poison to the people and our society. > why are you this way and why do you think it's a better way to be than the majority? I think this majority is non-existent - there is just too much variety. And regardless, I don't care about some 'majority'; I don't make choices for or against them - not in response to them at all. I am what I am, I live the way I want to live, the way that suits me best (which is probably most 'efficient' in many ways, including economically, matching me to resources, needs, etc.). Why would I live any other way? In fact, that attitude puts me in the majority in the US. The whole argument smacks of another attempt by reactionaries to encroach on the freedom of others, now trying to force conformity to what they want. I'm sure they wouldn't want roles reversed!
throwaway894345 4y ago
> In my case, the appeal of large city blended culture is that (1) I can find my tribe much more easily and (2) the tribes all have to get along because there's no dominant tribe enforcing its norms on the others. (There's obviously generalization in this statement, but I'd argue that relative to a monoculture community that these things are more truth than not. SF, SEA and others have plenty of challenges, but IMHO it's in part because they've become monocultures, or at least tech has become the dominant tribe and asserts its will on other cultures.) Alternatively, perhaps there is a dominant culture in major US cities and you simply don't feel pressure to conform (because you're already conforming). Imagine someone expressing support for traditional values, police, Israel, etc or expressing criticism of BLM, Roe v. Wade, "soft-on-crime" policies, etc in a major US city--that person would definitely feel pressure (if not harassment) to conform to progressive politics. Hell, in my major US city, I feel chafed for not believing that cars are a completely unmitigated evil, and I'm sure there are a whole lot of areas where I don't feel chafed by the dominant progressive politics.

rayiner 4y ago

> grew up in suburban Midwest America. Monoculture is great if you're aligned with the monoculture, but it's quite miserable if you're unwilling or unable to conform. The conformity is kind of the point and makes it better for the rest of us.

dylan604 4y ago
And there it is! We only want ourselves to be comfy, but nobody cares what effect it has on anyone else. Just as long as everyone conforms to your way of thinking. I really don't care if you want to live an limited life experience and assume it is the only possible way of life. But when you start telling other people that they must live like you want them to because they want to live in the same area you do is just too much to take. It doesn't truly affect you other than you have to accept something you don't agree.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  > In small town USA, the local culture usually is inferior. > And there it is! We only want ourselves to be comfy, but nobody cares what effect it has on anyone else. Just as long as everyone conforms to your way of thinking. Can you please lower the rhetorical temperature? > But when you start telling other people that they must live like you want them to because they want to live in the same area you do is just too much to take. There's plenty of cultural orthodoxy in cities as well, it's probably just more agreeable to you.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > There's plenty of cultural orthodoxy in cities as well, it's probably just more agreeable to you. What are you referring to? In large cities, you can think and do what you want and nobody will much care or notice unless you force them to.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      I’ve seen people accosted in public for wearing conservative political t-shirts or hats on multiple occasions in Chicago. It was pretty frothing there from 2016 to 2020, and I’m not even a conservative.
      - wolverine876 4y ago
        Wow, never seen it in a city, and I've been around plenty. You see the absolute craziest things in cities and nobody even notices - it's part of the culture. It's a running joke.
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        I notice people yelling at strangers (there’s also a whole bunch of videos of people being jumped for wearing clothes that signal conservativism, but I haven’t seen that up close), but a much less extreme example is just gender stuff: my wife and I have a pretty traditional division of labor (by happenstance, not design, although it doesn’t matter for the purposes of this discussion) and we get some funny looks/remarks from a lot of people. It would be simpler if I were passionate about cooking and my wife was the breadwinner and finance manager, but we still have it better than people who are actually conservative.
didibus 4y ago
That's an interesting viewpoint. So the conformity somehow makes you less nervous or anxious? Does it bring you a sense of safety and comfort? I'm just really curious what you like about it? For me conformity has always just been boring and restricting, and I consider it an all around negative. I like to try new things, and I live to experience as much of what life can bring as I can. So I find the idea of artificially restricting ones options on how to dress, sing, what to eat, how to dance, what to make of art, what stories you can tell, how to make love, how to play, how to express yourself, what to talk about, who you can be with, what games are allowed, what you're supposed to do on Sunday morning, etc. just an all around negative. It feels like a choke hold on my life, which is the most precious thing I have, so restrictions on the extent of how much I'm allowed to live and experience seem completely unreasonable and oppressive to me. But I'm a pretty confident and courageous person, I don't have anxieties, and I enjoy getting out of my comfort zone and trying new things, learning, discovery, are all things I'm drawn too. I know people who aren't like that, have more anxieties, so I never really thought that for them maybe conformity was like a relief, a way to take out a source of stress of the unknown with clear strict rules and conventions that they can rely on.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Not really any of those things. Conformity increases social trust and reduces social transaction costs; it yields non-zero sum returns to social efficiency for the same reason standardization often does. There is a reason societies closer to the edge of survival are more rigidly conformist. It’s not because Bangladeshis or Africans are dumb or backward, but because your typical third world village would quickly die of starvation if you ran it like a California college. Restriction of choice can likewise be welfare maximizing. People’s brains aren’t fully developed until 25. Which is remarkable if you think about it. People spend a third of their lives walking around without all their faculties. And even after that most people have trouble making good decisions. Not just dumb people, but nearly everyone. Why are there fat doctors and nurses? Rigid social norms can help people make better decisions, especially the people who need the most help with that. Again, there is a reason individual choice is emphasized almost solely in societies rich enough to afford letting people make mistakes.
astura 4y ago
cortesoft 4y ago
The cost of conformity is not the same for everyone. It might be easy if your natural state is fairly close to the norm you are conforming to. It is a lot worse if your natural state is in direct contradiction to the norm. It is easy for someone who is fairly close and doesn’t have to adjust much to say that the cost of conformity is worth it for the gain.
wolverine876 4y ago
> The conformity is kind of the point and makes it better for the rest of us. The 'rest of us' being people outside the monoculture? Things aren't so good there. Conformity limits people's freedom, often greatly, often in very fundamental ways. People can't chose their religion, sexual orientation, politics, interests, career, etc. You are free to chose conformity if you like, but the problem is that conformity is forced on others.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  What's ironic of course is that the comment comes from an immigrant to the US. Though one who's proved quite hostile to other cultures and practices.
- jimmygrapes 4y ago
  For those outside of the monoculture, the non conformists, why? I don't mean what makes you (nb: using the term you in the general sense) different, I mean why? And then, why are you so certain that your difference or reasons for that difference is somehow better? I can extrapolate that most answers will be things like "LGBTQIAPP+" or based on externalities like skin color, but those are low hanging (and imo pretty bland) fruits. Other answers might be religion (or rejection thereof), or taste in music, or general youthful rebellion/contrarianism. Yet other answers might be entirely unimaginable to me. But my question remains: why are you this way and why do you think it's a better way to be than the majority? What factors external to the conformist group contributed or influenced you, if any? For the record, I, too, have fled regions and communities, both physical and virtual, where I was a deviant. I asked myself these questions and I have answers if anyone were to ask. I'm just curious what answers others have come up with, and whether they have ever asked themselves those same questions. I'm also curious if others have found their own answers lacking and how that is handled.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > I can extrapolate that most answers will be things like "LGBTQIAPP+" or based on externalities like skin color, but those are low hanging (and imo pretty bland) fruits. They are overwhelming, brutal, oppressive experiences of millions of people. Not bland, but poison to the people and our society. > why are you this way and why do you think it's a better way to be than the majority? I think this majority is non-existent - there is just too much variety. And regardless, I don't care about some 'majority'; I don't make choices for or against them - not in response to them at all. I am what I am, I live the way I want to live, the way that suits me best (which is probably most 'efficient' in many ways, including economically, matching me to resources, needs, etc.). Why would I live any other way? In fact, that attitude puts me in the majority in the US. The whole argument smacks of another attempt by reactionaries to encroach on the freedom of others, now trying to force conformity to what they want. I'm sure they wouldn't want roles reversed!

throwaway894345 4y ago

> In my case, the appeal of large city blended culture is that (1) I can find my tribe much more easily and (2) the tribes all have to get along because there's no dominant tribe enforcing its norms on the others. (There's obviously generalization in this statement, but I'd argue that relative to a monoculture community that these things are more truth than not. SF, SEA and others have plenty of challenges, but IMHO it's in part because they've become monocultures, or at least tech has become the dominant tribe and asserts its will on other cultures.) Alternatively, perhaps there is a dominant culture in major US cities and you simply don't feel pressure to conform (because you're already conforming). Imagine someone expressing support for traditional values, police, Israel, etc or expressing criticism of BLM, Roe v. Wade, "soft-on-crime" policies, etc in a major US city--that person would definitely feel pressure (if not harassment) to conform to progressive politics. Hell, in my major US city, I feel chafed for not believing that cars are a completely unmitigated evil, and I'm sure there are a whole lot of areas where I don't feel chafed by the dominant progressive politics.