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Except no one has been able to come to any consensus on what "disinformation" is and isn't. For most, "disinformation" means "doesn't support my political narr

by tdfx 4y ago

Except no one has been able to come to any consensus on what "disinformation" is and isn't. For most, "disinformation" means "doesn't support my political narrative". Sure, there's extreme cases that are obvious, but the recent big tech censorship scandals have proven that no one has been able to draw the line correctly.

ohiovr 4y ago
Truth is not a product of consensus. Was it truth in 1491 that the earth was flat?
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Truth is not a product of consensus. It's not a product of a "fact checker", either.
  - eqNotEq 4y ago
    This is nonsense. It’s true we don’t kill each other on sight. A trained consensus has been reached that’s not acceptable. If something sells for price X consensus dictated that the right price for something was X. Two people who walk into a building wall would agree they cannot walk through it. Consensus! Consensus based truths appear all the time. You’re being overly reductive.
    - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
      Throughout history major scientific breakthroughs have regularly been counter-consensus.
      - eqNotEq 4y ago
        The correctness of the historical record is consensus driven since none of us were there; those experts had people around them providing signal through the noise. The outcome runs contrary to past story but achieving the outcome relies on consensus the new work was viable as a replacement. Einstein did not start by defining numbers himself. He relied on consensus that our number system to that point was correct. If you have some fancy notion that’s contrary to one that exists, do share. But also consider it’s consensus based social truth to even allow such ideation rather than subjugate everyone in to the mines. It’s consensus that gives rise to big rockets and internet. No hermit of a mountain man has ever changed the world. There was always consensus such efforts be enabled.
  - rectang 4y ago
    In a post-truth world, there's no shared reality, and we can't talk to each other. We can only shout our own truth louder.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      See, the problem is that we think and act like we're in a post-truth world, but we're not. Reality is out there. Certain statements correspond more closely with the reality that exists, and others less. Reality doesn't go away when you don't believe it, when it's outside your filter bubble, when it's censored by all the big social media outfits. And building a society that is based on something contrary to reality is... let's call it "probably unstable".
      - rectang 4y ago
        In a post-truth world, actual reality is out there, but parties can't come to an agreement about what that reality is. Reality exists, but truth does not. > And building a society that is based on something contrary to reality is... let's call it "probably unstable". It doesn't matter if it's unstable, so long as your side wins.
        krb686 4y ago
        > Reality exists, but truth does not. Actual reality and Truth are the same thing. Because two parties cannot agree on what they perceive the Truth to be does not imply it doesn't exist. In fact, both parties could be wrong - Truth could be a 3rd thing both are oblivious to.
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        This may be a definition thing. Some statements that correspond more closely to reality. I call those statements "more true". It sounds like your definition of "true" is more like "what we all agree on". I don't like that definition, because it means that things can go from "true" to "not true" and back to "true", as the consensus changes. I find that disconcerting, because that isn't how I think about truth. (Note well: I am not saying that your definition is wrong, merely that it doesn't match how I think about truth.) But I think we can agree on this: Those who care about reality and those who care about winning consensus are talking about completely different things.
  - lupire 4y ago
    Search term for you: epistemology What is true and what we can know are not the same thing.
- car_analogy 4y ago
  Tangential, but, at least in Europe, the Earth was widely believed to be spherical since ancient Greece, and Columbus relied on that, both for navigation and path-finding - traveling west on a flat Earth would not get him to India.
- horns4lyfe 4y ago
  Exactly, so what business does anyone have demanding we adhere to the consensus of what misinformation is?

by tdfx 4y ago

ohiovr 4y ago

Truth is not a product of consensus. Was it truth in 1491 that the earth was flat?

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Truth is not a product of consensus. It's not a product of a "fact checker", either.
- eqNotEq 4y ago
  This is nonsense. It’s true we don’t kill each other on sight. A trained consensus has been reached that’s not acceptable. If something sells for price X consensus dictated that the right price for something was X. Two people who walk into a building wall would agree they cannot walk through it. Consensus! Consensus based truths appear all the time. You’re being overly reductive.
  - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
    Throughout history major scientific breakthroughs have regularly been counter-consensus.
    - eqNotEq 4y ago
      The correctness of the historical record is consensus driven since none of us were there; those experts had people around them providing signal through the noise. The outcome runs contrary to past story but achieving the outcome relies on consensus the new work was viable as a replacement. Einstein did not start by defining numbers himself. He relied on consensus that our number system to that point was correct. If you have some fancy notion that’s contrary to one that exists, do share. But also consider it’s consensus based social truth to even allow such ideation rather than subjugate everyone in to the mines. It’s consensus that gives rise to big rockets and internet. No hermit of a mountain man has ever changed the world. There was always consensus such efforts be enabled.
- rectang 4y ago
  In a post-truth world, there's no shared reality, and we can't talk to each other. We can only shout our own truth louder.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    See, the problem is that we think and act like we're in a post-truth world, but we're not. Reality is out there. Certain statements correspond more closely with the reality that exists, and others less. Reality doesn't go away when you don't believe it, when it's outside your filter bubble, when it's censored by all the big social media outfits. And building a society that is based on something contrary to reality is... let's call it "probably unstable".
    - rectang 4y ago
      In a post-truth world, actual reality is out there, but parties can't come to an agreement about what that reality is. Reality exists, but truth does not. > And building a society that is based on something contrary to reality is... let's call it "probably unstable". It doesn't matter if it's unstable, so long as your side wins.
      - krb686 4y ago
        > Reality exists, but truth does not. Actual reality and Truth are the same thing. Because two parties cannot agree on what they perceive the Truth to be does not imply it doesn't exist. In fact, both parties could be wrong - Truth could be a 3rd thing both are oblivious to.
      - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        This may be a definition thing. Some statements that correspond more closely to reality. I call those statements "more true". It sounds like your definition of "true" is more like "what we all agree on". I don't like that definition, because it means that things can go from "true" to "not true" and back to "true", as the consensus changes. I find that disconcerting, because that isn't how I think about truth. (Note well: I am not saying that your definition is wrong, merely that it doesn't match how I think about truth.) But I think we can agree on this: Those who care about reality and those who care about winning consensus are talking about completely different things.
- lupire 4y ago
  Search term for you: epistemology What is true and what we can know are not the same thing.
car_analogy 4y ago
Tangential, but, at least in Europe, the Earth was widely believed to be spherical since ancient Greece, and Columbus relied on that, both for navigation and path-finding - traveling west on a flat Earth would not get him to India.
horns4lyfe 4y ago
Exactly, so what business does anyone have demanding we adhere to the consensus of what misinformation is?