6 ms·

You're assuming male prisoners have a "right" to be housed with female prisoners, and that female prisoners have no right to sex-segregated facilities. Whether

You're assuming male prisoners have a "right" to be housed with female prisoners, and that female prisoners have no right to sex-segregated facilities. Whether the former "right" exists is far from a settled question. Assuming the former right does exist, then there is a conflict of rights (between the wishes of males who want to be housed with females, and females who want to be housed without males). Rights conflicts like this are not solved by simply telling one group (in this case, women) to shut up and stop complaining. Where the ACLU comes in here I have no idea.

tsimionescu 4y ago
Using "males" and "females" here is irrelevant and actively seeking to confuse. People typically consider that women (cis or trans) have a right to be housed together, and separately from cismen. If anything, the biggest problem of policy are trans-men, who would likely feel much more concerned by being housed with cis-man prisoners, but who would also make women uncomfortable.
- ryan93 4y ago
  The desire of women not to be housed with men has nothing to do with the interior gender experience of the male in question.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    Sure, but it also has nothing to do with their chromosome structure. It has a lot to do with their gender expression, in the end.
    - fleetinging 4y ago
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        > A woman is, quite simply, an adult human female. So an adult human female (XX phenotype) who is taking masculinizing hormones and thus has a beard, body hair, a heavy voice, and perhaps has had his breasts surgically removed, or even had penile reconstruction surgery, is, in your opinion, a woman? If he is not naked and you do not have a genotypic test result, how would would you know? Do you think a woman seeing him in a women's locker or in a women's bathroom would feel comfortable? Or would she feel more comfortable with a male that has a female body and clothing presentation (say, Caitlyn Jenner)? Also, your definitions of course leave no room for people with various biological conditions that leave them with an uncertain biological sex - hermaphrodytism, XXY genotype, chymerism (multiple genotypes in different tissues), testosterone resistance (natural female phenotype despite a male genotype) etc.
        fleetinging 4y ago
        > So an adult human female (XX phenotype) who is taking masculinizing hormones and thus has a beard, body hair, a heavy voice, and perhaps has had his breasts surgically removed, or even had penile reconstruction surgery, is, in your opinion, a woman? Yes. She's a woman who has taken masculinizing hormones, and had cosmetic surgery. She is not changing her sex. She remains female, and is therefore a woman. Consider this: the women athletes who have doped with testosterone, did they become men? No, of course not. What if they got breast cancer and had to have a double mastectomy? Also no - they're still women.
- fleetinging 4y ago
pessimizer 4y ago
> Rights conflicts like this are not solved by simply telling one group (in this case, women) to shut up and stop complaining. I'm pretty sure that's how conflicts with women have been historically resolved.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Caveat: We don't actually sex-segregate prisons. We segregate based off of primary and secondary sex characteristics.
- lesstenseflow 4y ago
  This is nonsense that serves only to obfuscate. Normally this sort of stuff is put forward by people trying to confuse and befuddle the reader. We segregate prisons by sex. Primary and secondary sex characteristics are observable characteristics that indicate one's sex. Your argument is like saying "You don't buy a Mazda. You go to the Mazda dealership and buy a car that says Mazda on the back, interior, and on the manual. You don't actually know the car is a Mazda."
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    No, my argument is people mistake a used car lot for a licensed dealership. Just because the salesman says its a Mazda and it has a little logo in the front doesn't tell you much about its history, modifications, etc. Intersex people are in fact pretty common, so much so that there are more intersex olympic athletes than there are trans ones.

tsimionescu 4y ago

Using "males" and "females" here is irrelevant and actively seeking to confuse. People typically consider that women (cis or trans) have a right to be housed together, and separately from cismen. If anything, the biggest problem of policy are trans-men, who would likely feel much more concerned by being housed with cis-man prisoners, but who would also make women uncomfortable.

ryan93 4y ago
The desire of women not to be housed with men has nothing to do with the interior gender experience of the male in question.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  Sure, but it also has nothing to do with their chromosome structure. It has a lot to do with their gender expression, in the end.
  - fleetinging 4y ago
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      > A woman is, quite simply, an adult human female. So an adult human female (XX phenotype) who is taking masculinizing hormones and thus has a beard, body hair, a heavy voice, and perhaps has had his breasts surgically removed, or even had penile reconstruction surgery, is, in your opinion, a woman? If he is not naked and you do not have a genotypic test result, how would would you know? Do you think a woman seeing him in a women's locker or in a women's bathroom would feel comfortable? Or would she feel more comfortable with a male that has a female body and clothing presentation (say, Caitlyn Jenner)? Also, your definitions of course leave no room for people with various biological conditions that leave them with an uncertain biological sex - hermaphrodytism, XXY genotype, chymerism (multiple genotypes in different tissues), testosterone resistance (natural female phenotype despite a male genotype) etc.
      - fleetinging 4y ago
        > So an adult human female (XX phenotype) who is taking masculinizing hormones and thus has a beard, body hair, a heavy voice, and perhaps has had his breasts surgically removed, or even had penile reconstruction surgery, is, in your opinion, a woman? Yes. She's a woman who has taken masculinizing hormones, and had cosmetic surgery. She is not changing her sex. She remains female, and is therefore a woman. Consider this: the women athletes who have doped with testosterone, did they become men? No, of course not. What if they got breast cancer and had to have a double mastectomy? Also no - they're still women.
fleetinging 4y ago

pessimizer 4y ago

> Rights conflicts like this are not solved by simply telling one group (in this case, women) to shut up and stop complaining. I'm pretty sure that's how conflicts with women have been historically resolved.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

Caveat: We don't actually sex-segregate prisons. We segregate based off of primary and secondary sex characteristics.

lesstenseflow 4y ago
This is nonsense that serves only to obfuscate. Normally this sort of stuff is put forward by people trying to confuse and befuddle the reader. We segregate prisons by sex. Primary and secondary sex characteristics are observable characteristics that indicate one's sex. Your argument is like saying "You don't buy a Mazda. You go to the Mazda dealership and buy a car that says Mazda on the back, interior, and on the manual. You don't actually know the car is a Mazda."
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  No, my argument is people mistake a used car lot for a licensed dealership. Just because the salesman says its a Mazda and it has a little logo in the front doesn't tell you much about its history, modifications, etc. Intersex people are in fact pretty common, so much so that there are more intersex olympic athletes than there are trans ones.