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I was one of the first sailors to go through DS A school at Mare Island. Previously the DS went through ET school first. We learned the purpose of every gate

I was one of the first sailors to go through DS A school at Mare Island. Previously the DS went through ET school first. We learned the purpose of every gate in the UDT a 15-bit computer with 512 words of memory before stepping up to the 642A and 642B computers. This was in 1967 when it was still possible to know how every bit of hardware and software worked.

albatross13 4y ago
Now that is cool- I have to ask, is there a moment in your memory where looking back you kind of realized "Wow, I can no longer keep track of everything going on with these computers?" (in regards to it being possible to know how every bit of hardware/software worked).
- segmondy 4y ago
  It's still possible to do so. Just get an EE degree, you will understand hardware down to the gate level. Take a solid CS course and you will understand software down the basic levels. Understanding hardware to OS is something that a lot of people still know, what is difficult to know these days is the layers of software by 3rd parties running on the OS.
  - izzydata 4y ago
    You can analyze any single part of a modern large piece of software, but I think the point is that you can no longer remember the entirety of the software or hardware. Even a single function is going to get compiled through multiple layers of obfuscation until it hits the hardware and at that point modern CPUs are also extremely convoluted. Nobody is going to know how a function on your OS will compute with absolute certainty.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      Not all modern CPUs are high performance devices. In fact the vast majority of microprocessors are no more complicated than an early minicomputer.
- cptnapalm 4y ago
  From what I've read from others a PDP-8 or maybe a PDP-11 is about the limit. They got a 12-bit computer with 32 KiW to be a time sharing system for 17 users with TSS-8. So they were still quite capable.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    4k words of RAM, and it ran a Fortran compiler.
- GrumpyYoungMan 4y ago
  Contrary to some sibling posts, datapath width isn't really the limiting factor for comprehension IMO; everything is "wider" but not more difficult to understand. For example, undergraduate computer engineering students could and did design pipelined in-order 32 bit processors as part of their studies. At least IMO superscalar + out of order execution was when things really became too complex to hold comprehension of the entire processor in one's head.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    > datapath width isn't really the limiting factor for comprehension IMO People reckon that changing the head gaskets on an old Rover V8 engine is a complicated and scary job but it's exactly the same as doing it on an old Mini A-series engine, you've just got to do two of them and they're twice as big.
bell-cot 4y ago
'67...wow. I'd bet I understand the reason for that kind of training. Folks who remembered (for instance) the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (14–15 November, 1942) would still be serving. And the vast differences in the performances of the battleships USS Washington and USS South Dakota in that battle. Admiral Lee, aboard the Washington, had an incredibly detailed understanding of the ship and its systems. He made "Sink enemy battleship while taking no damage" look easy. Vs. the South Dakota's massive screw-ups in her electrical switchboard room - just before the battle got interesting - converted her into a helpless, easy target for enemy fire.
- mwint 4y ago
  Sounds interesting, do you know of any good places to read about this?
  - bell-cot 4y ago
    Start at the mouth of the Wikipedia rabbit-hole - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Battle_of_Guadalcanal#Second_Naval_Battle_of_Guadalcanal,_14%E2%80%9315_November https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Battle_of_Guadalcanal#Se... - and beware! - Wikipedia has some seriously deep citations on this, if you don't have plenty of hours to kill.
  - jandrese 4y ago
    Beyond what was already posted there is a good starting overview video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI24zwFLcuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI24zwFLcuU
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    I'd also be interested. Any books by professionals - historians, for example?

albatross13 4y ago

Now that is cool- I have to ask, is there a moment in your memory where looking back you kind of realized "Wow, I can no longer keep track of everything going on with these computers?" (in regards to it being possible to know how every bit of hardware/software worked).

segmondy 4y ago
It's still possible to do so. Just get an EE degree, you will understand hardware down to the gate level. Take a solid CS course and you will understand software down the basic levels. Understanding hardware to OS is something that a lot of people still know, what is difficult to know these days is the layers of software by 3rd parties running on the OS.
- izzydata 4y ago
  You can analyze any single part of a modern large piece of software, but I think the point is that you can no longer remember the entirety of the software or hardware. Even a single function is going to get compiled through multiple layers of obfuscation until it hits the hardware and at that point modern CPUs are also extremely convoluted. Nobody is going to know how a function on your OS will compute with absolute certainty.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    Not all modern CPUs are high performance devices. In fact the vast majority of microprocessors are no more complicated than an early minicomputer.
cptnapalm 4y ago
From what I've read from others a PDP-8 or maybe a PDP-11 is about the limit. They got a 12-bit computer with 32 KiW to be a time sharing system for 17 users with TSS-8. So they were still quite capable.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  4k words of RAM, and it ran a Fortran compiler.
GrumpyYoungMan 4y ago
Contrary to some sibling posts, datapath width isn't really the limiting factor for comprehension IMO; everything is "wider" but not more difficult to understand. For example, undergraduate computer engineering students could and did design pipelined in-order 32 bit processors as part of their studies. At least IMO superscalar + out of order execution was when things really became too complex to hold comprehension of the entire processor in one's head.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > datapath width isn't really the limiting factor for comprehension IMO People reckon that changing the head gaskets on an old Rover V8 engine is a complicated and scary job but it's exactly the same as doing it on an old Mini A-series engine, you've just got to do two of them and they're twice as big.

bell-cot 4y ago

'67...wow. I'd bet I understand the reason for that kind of training. Folks who remembered (for instance) the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (14–15 November, 1942) would still be serving. And the vast differences in the performances of the battleships USS Washington and USS South Dakota in that battle. Admiral Lee, aboard the Washington, had an incredibly detailed understanding of the ship and its systems. He made "Sink enemy battleship while taking no damage" look easy. Vs. the South Dakota's massive screw-ups in her electrical switchboard room - just before the battle got interesting - converted her into a helpless, easy target for enemy fire.

mwint 4y ago
Sounds interesting, do you know of any good places to read about this?
- bell-cot 4y ago
  Start at the mouth of the Wikipedia rabbit-hole - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Battle_of_Guadalcanal#Second_Naval_Battle_of_Guadalcanal,_14%E2%80%9315_November https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Battle_of_Guadalcanal#Se... - and beware! - Wikipedia has some seriously deep citations on this, if you don't have plenty of hours to kill.
- jandrese 4y ago
  Beyond what was already posted there is a good starting overview video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI24zwFLcuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI24zwFLcuU
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- wolverine876 4y ago
  I'd also be interested. Any books by professionals - historians, for example?