8 ms·

Why in heavens name would you want to change wordpress like this? If it doesn't live up to your standards, just use Ruby+Rails or Python+Django. (Or even PHP+so

by OkkeFF 15y ago

Why in heavens name would you want to change wordpress like this? If it doesn't live up to your standards, just use Ruby+Rails or Python+Django. (Or even PHP+some framework)

rmrk 15y ago
Because WordPress is great, but it's a pain to do extensive development with. Replicating WordPress functionality in Rails or Django would be an enormous job. Making WordPress more like Django was much less work.
- Otto42 15y ago
  Gotta say that I don't get it either. They've basically just added yet-another-HTML-templating system into the mix. Question not answered: "For the love of all that is holy, why?" PHP is an HTML templating system. Tacking on yet another one strikes me as more than a little pointless.
  - stdbrouw 15y ago
    "All the HTML is in one place and contains as little code as possible. One place for code that interacts with data. One place for code that processes requests and responses. One place for all the URL regexes. And all these places are predictable."
    - Otto42 15y ago
      So, when you have a problem with the system, then to find the bug you have to look in three or four places instead of one.
      - superchink 15y ago
        By that reasoning, we should just code a whole site in a single PHP page that handles both the backend processing and the display layer and generation of HTML. It's not about decreasing the number of files (to look into to find bugs), it's about organizing the code into logical pieces that are more manageable.
yurivictor 15y ago
Wordpress does publishing right. The admin is easy and intuitive for writers, photographers, editors and the news production. Ruby on Rails and Django have admins best saved for programmers. I suspect the time and effort to create a user-friendly admin and publishing system for either framework was higher than just using Wordpress, which already just works and people are familiar with. This makes sense. But, Wordpress can be a pain for programming teams with front end and back end developers. The code is often embedded, which means both a designer and programmer often have to touch the same file at the same time. The MVC model fixes this problem allowing teams to work simultaneously with designers designing and coders coding, while also simultaneously making the coding easier by creating a model built around standard framework structure. Wordpress wins for writers. MVC wins for programmers and designers. MTV wins for both.
- contempoinc 15y ago
  Can't agree more, although I haven't personally tested the MTV plugin its looking super promising for large WordPress sites. However in the long run it might make more sense putting time into building a revamped admin for Django instead — using WP as the model.
- pp19dd 15y ago
  Noble and geeky effort, but I'm skeptical whether I'll use it (disclaimer: I did try smarty implementations before and had similar experiences.) Think the dissenters' consensus is that this goes against grain of what's been organic WP development (not that it's all perfect, but, there is a massive contributing base.) This thing might become obsolete nightly or I could be entirely wrong and it'll get adapted whenever WP guys wrangle major internal design changes at some point. I'll skip over all that and just address specifics that make me feel uneasy. As they stated in their writeup, one problem is that function exports have to be hard-coded. Not to say they won't fix this (switch it to smarty3-like model or control what gets installed), but that means they've interfered with the admin process of installing plugins that need minor template alterations or otherwise meet unspecified limits; ex: wp-paginate. That means that the core MTV team is still involved with the end user, and the template designer. Secondly, sure, WP templating hasn't changed all that much lately - but historically it has changed drastically between major releases. This MTV implementation forces Trib. guys to spend time keeping up with updates and changes that will come out of nowhere. I'm not sure if MTV breaks WP's template hierarchy, or its template inheritance features, but those I rely heavily on.

by OkkeFF 15y ago

Why in heavens name would you want to change wordpress like this? If it doesn't live up to your standards, just use Ruby+Rails or Python+Django. (Or even PHP+some framework)

rmrk 15y ago

Because WordPress is great, but it's a pain to do extensive development with. Replicating WordPress functionality in Rails or Django would be an enormous job. Making WordPress more like Django was much less work.

Otto42 15y ago
Gotta say that I don't get it either. They've basically just added yet-another-HTML-templating system into the mix. Question not answered: "For the love of all that is holy, why?" PHP is an HTML templating system. Tacking on yet another one strikes me as more than a little pointless.
- stdbrouw 15y ago
  "All the HTML is in one place and contains as little code as possible. One place for code that interacts with data. One place for code that processes requests and responses. One place for all the URL regexes. And all these places are predictable."
  - Otto42 15y ago
    So, when you have a problem with the system, then to find the bug you have to look in three or four places instead of one.
    - superchink 15y ago
      By that reasoning, we should just code a whole site in a single PHP page that handles both the backend processing and the display layer and generation of HTML. It's not about decreasing the number of files (to look into to find bugs), it's about organizing the code into logical pieces that are more manageable.

yurivictor 15y ago

Wordpress does publishing right. The admin is easy and intuitive for writers, photographers, editors and the news production. Ruby on Rails and Django have admins best saved for programmers. I suspect the time and effort to create a user-friendly admin and publishing system for either framework was higher than just using Wordpress, which already just works and people are familiar with. This makes sense. But, Wordpress can be a pain for programming teams with front end and back end developers. The code is often embedded, which means both a designer and programmer often have to touch the same file at the same time. The MVC model fixes this problem allowing teams to work simultaneously with designers designing and coders coding, while also simultaneously making the coding easier by creating a model built around standard framework structure. Wordpress wins for writers. MVC wins for programmers and designers. MTV wins for both.

contempoinc 15y ago
Can't agree more, although I haven't personally tested the MTV plugin its looking super promising for large WordPress sites. However in the long run it might make more sense putting time into building a revamped admin for Django instead — using WP as the model.
pp19dd 15y ago
Noble and geeky effort, but I'm skeptical whether I'll use it (disclaimer: I did try smarty implementations before and had similar experiences.) Think the dissenters' consensus is that this goes against grain of what's been organic WP development (not that it's all perfect, but, there is a massive contributing base.) This thing might become obsolete nightly or I could be entirely wrong and it'll get adapted whenever WP guys wrangle major internal design changes at some point. I'll skip over all that and just address specifics that make me feel uneasy. As they stated in their writeup, one problem is that function exports have to be hard-coded. Not to say they won't fix this (switch it to smarty3-like model or control what gets installed), but that means they've interfered with the admin process of installing plugins that need minor template alterations or otherwise meet unspecified limits; ex: wp-paginate. That means that the core MTV team is still involved with the end user, and the template designer. Secondly, sure, WP templating hasn't changed all that much lately - but historically it has changed drastically between major releases. This MTV implementation forces Trib. guys to spend time keeping up with updates and changes that will come out of nowhere. I'm not sure if MTV breaks WP's template hierarchy, or its template inheritance features, but those I rely heavily on.