7 ms·

One of my kids - 10yrs old - has been wanting to learn basic HTML and "programming". We've been going through the W3C with no trouble, and he's learning at an a

One of my kids - 10yrs old - has been wanting to learn basic HTML and "programming". We've been going through the W3C with no trouble, and he's learning at an amazing rate. This tutorial is way beyond anything he could approach. For example "Pedagogy" - I don't know what that means, and neither does he. Another example, from the beginning "In this section of the curriculum, you will be introduced to non project-based concepts important to becoming a professional developer." I suspect most of this is translation issues, but given the audience (kids, newbies), this language is super intimidating.

jlooper 4y ago
It's not really geared towards 10 year olds, although we had a 9 year old contributor, actually! I'd recommend MakeCode for that age group
AlchemistCamp 4y ago
> "Pedagogy" - I don't know what that means It means “teaching methods”.
- devnulll 4y ago
  The meta-point is that the usage of complex words is off-putting to those trying to learn something for the first time. There's always an element of "I don't know what this is, so I can skip it" but better to keep topics simple and approachable.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    > usage of complex words is off-putting to those trying to learn something for the first time. I prefer when I'm learning something new if it treats me like an intelligent person who is ignorant of that topic. So, yes, if you want to teach me something be gentle in the language from that subject. But please assume I do know some things.
  - 0des 4y ago
    we love our stupid fucking acronyms and pompous terms though, they are right.
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    What is a 'complex word'? I'm serious. If you google 'pedagogy definition' you get an easy to understand definition. If you're not willing to google things, you aren't ready to be a web developer. Method names alone will drop you way out of the simple english, top 1k words simplification paradigm.
  - ogma 4y ago
  - 4WIW 4y ago
    I think this is a fair point. What about readability score of the course? For better accuracy, maybe one needs to take out special terms first.
  - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
    My meta point is, "Don't give up. Everything is learnable!" My first real tech job was in a country and office where the working language was one I didn't speak while growing up. If I came across words at work I needed and didn't know, I looked them up or asked for clarification and learned them.
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    The linked document seems pretty clearly addressed to both teachers and students, which might not be a great decision. If they had an entry point dedicated only to students they could probably leave out all the places where they mention pedagogy. That said, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to criticize “pedagogy” as being a complicated term. It’s okay to occasionally need to look up something in a dictionary, especially in cases like this where it’s an incredibly precise and standard word for the concept it’s referring to. You could also find and replace all mentions of “biology” with “the study of life,” but I think using these terms are fine even if a very small portion of readers need to look it up once in the dictionary.
  - mejutoco 4y ago
    This is what dictionaries are for, seriously. Instead of bending backwards to serve some supposedly alienated learners, we can look the word up. When I learn something for the first time I try to be humble and put in some effort. English is not my first language, but if we start avoiding "complex" words soon we will be communicating in grunts.
jholman 4y ago
What W3C resources have you been using?
- devnulll 4y ago
  We've been using this one: https://www.w3schools.com/html/ https://www.w3schools.com/html/ He's had no trouble at all following along and using their tooling. I've been mostly hands-off. I'm about to graduate him from "do it in just the browser" to using GitHub pages. That way he can have an HTML site that's "his" and start putting the pieces together.
  - solarengineer 4y ago
    You may also want to consider a Droplet for his next website. He will learn about the plumbing. That way, when ever he is filled with self-doubt and needs reaffirmation, he would be able to put things together from the ground up and regain confidence.
    - andi999 4y ago
      What is a Droplet? Edit: seriously. Non native speaker here, I have never heard the term. Googling shows: https://www.digitalocean.com/products/droplets https://www.digitalocean.com/products/droplets So a VM from this vendor is meant? Why?
      - solarengineer 4y ago
        VPS hosting at Digital Ocean, available for USD 5 per month
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - csnover 4y ago
    Just so you know, W3C is the main standards body for the web; w3schools is an unaffiliated privately-run web site with an intentionally confusing name. A much better general web resource—certainly for any intermediate-or-above learning, but probably also for beginners—is MDN[0]. [0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn
MrJohz 4y ago
I don't think it's a translation issue, rather I get the impression that this has been written by educationalists for educationalists. So the pedagogical section is written using the basic technical language for that field, because the assumption is that the main target audience will be familiar with those terms. It's a bit like how I might prepare a document for colleagues and a non-technical product owner, and I need to overall contents to be clear enough (and non-technical enough) for the PO to understand, but I also want to put technical details in for my colleagues who understand jargon like "load testing" or whatever else. I don't need to simplify the section on load testing and remove that sort of jargon, because in principle it's not necessary for the PO to precisely understand those details. So I don't think it's a translation issue, but rather it's not designed to be directly a tutorial for getting started with programming, but rather a tool for teachers to teach lessons on getting started with programming.
onion2k 4y ago
Our project-based pedagogy allows you to learn while building, a proven way for new skills to 'stick'. The annoying thing about this sentence is that "pedagogy" could be replaced with "approach" or "method" and no meaning would be lost.

jlooper 4y ago

It's not really geared towards 10 year olds, although we had a 9 year old contributor, actually! I'd recommend MakeCode for that age group

AlchemistCamp 4y ago

> "Pedagogy" - I don't know what that means It means “teaching methods”.

devnulll 4y ago
The meta-point is that the usage of complex words is off-putting to those trying to learn something for the first time. There's always an element of "I don't know what this is, so I can skip it" but better to keep topics simple and approachable.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  > usage of complex words is off-putting to those trying to learn something for the first time. I prefer when I'm learning something new if it treats me like an intelligent person who is ignorant of that topic. So, yes, if you want to teach me something be gentle in the language from that subject. But please assume I do know some things.
- 0des 4y ago
  we love our stupid fucking acronyms and pompous terms though, they are right.
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  What is a 'complex word'? I'm serious. If you google 'pedagogy definition' you get an easy to understand definition. If you're not willing to google things, you aren't ready to be a web developer. Method names alone will drop you way out of the simple english, top 1k words simplification paradigm.
- ogma 4y ago
- 4WIW 4y ago
  I think this is a fair point. What about readability score of the course? For better accuracy, maybe one needs to take out special terms first.
- AlchemistCamp 4y ago
  My meta point is, "Don't give up. Everything is learnable!" My first real tech job was in a country and office where the working language was one I didn't speak while growing up. If I came across words at work I needed and didn't know, I looked them up or asked for clarification and learned them.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  The linked document seems pretty clearly addressed to both teachers and students, which might not be a great decision. If they had an entry point dedicated only to students they could probably leave out all the places where they mention pedagogy. That said, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to criticize “pedagogy” as being a complicated term. It’s okay to occasionally need to look up something in a dictionary, especially in cases like this where it’s an incredibly precise and standard word for the concept it’s referring to. You could also find and replace all mentions of “biology” with “the study of life,” but I think using these terms are fine even if a very small portion of readers need to look it up once in the dictionary.
- mejutoco 4y ago
  This is what dictionaries are for, seriously. Instead of bending backwards to serve some supposedly alienated learners, we can look the word up. When I learn something for the first time I try to be humble and put in some effort. English is not my first language, but if we start avoiding "complex" words soon we will be communicating in grunts.

jholman 4y ago

What W3C resources have you been using?

devnulll 4y ago
We've been using this one: https://www.w3schools.com/html/ https://www.w3schools.com/html/ He's had no trouble at all following along and using their tooling. I've been mostly hands-off. I'm about to graduate him from "do it in just the browser" to using GitHub pages. That way he can have an HTML site that's "his" and start putting the pieces together.
- solarengineer 4y ago
  You may also want to consider a Droplet for his next website. He will learn about the plumbing. That way, when ever he is filled with self-doubt and needs reaffirmation, he would be able to put things together from the ground up and regain confidence.
  - andi999 4y ago
    What is a Droplet? Edit: seriously. Non native speaker here, I have never heard the term. Googling shows: https://www.digitalocean.com/products/droplets https://www.digitalocean.com/products/droplets So a VM from this vendor is meant? Why?
    - solarengineer 4y ago
      VPS hosting at Digital Ocean, available for USD 5 per month
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- csnover 4y ago
  Just so you know, W3C is the main standards body for the web; w3schools is an unaffiliated privately-run web site with an intentionally confusing name. A much better general web resource—certainly for any intermediate-or-above learning, but probably also for beginners—is MDN[0]. [0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn

MrJohz 4y ago

I don't think it's a translation issue, rather I get the impression that this has been written by educationalists for educationalists. So the pedagogical section is written using the basic technical language for that field, because the assumption is that the main target audience will be familiar with those terms. It's a bit like how I might prepare a document for colleagues and a non-technical product owner, and I need to overall contents to be clear enough (and non-technical enough) for the PO to understand, but I also want to put technical details in for my colleagues who understand jargon like "load testing" or whatever else. I don't need to simplify the section on load testing and remove that sort of jargon, because in principle it's not necessary for the PO to precisely understand those details. So I don't think it's a translation issue, but rather it's not designed to be directly a tutorial for getting started with programming, but rather a tool for teachers to teach lessons on getting started with programming.

onion2k 4y ago

Our project-based pedagogy allows you to learn while building, a proven way for new skills to 'stick'. The annoying thing about this sentence is that "pedagogy" could be replaced with "approach" or "method" and no meaning would be lost.