5 ms·

How can we trust that the SF Conservancy, or its successors, won't do something untoward with the copyright assignment? Looking at their list of sponsors doesn

How can we trust that the SF Conservancy, or its successors, won't do something untoward with the copyright assignment? Looking at their list of sponsors doesn't exactly assuage any such doubts as to their trustworthiness either.

walterbell 4y ago
Prior instance of principal-agent problem in open-source, https://lunduke.substack.com/p/linux-foundation-spends-just-34-of https://lunduke.substack.com/p/linux-foundation-spends-just-... > The Linux Foundation — the organization that effectively controls Linux and employs the creator of Linux — only spends 3.4% [of $177M] on… Linux. Is the proposed SFC copyright assignment intended to be temporary, e.g. could it be returned to the creator after a legal case is won? Why is it not sufficient for SFC to represent the copyright owner? Would joint/minority ownership be an option? Leaving aside legal concerns, could code maintainers possibly lose the ability to steward their OSS community and set governance policy, after they surrender copyright?
- skrtskrt 4y ago
  They also run training courses and certificates through that that horrific EdX website… blecch
- swores 4y ago
  You've linked to an article that is very clearly written in bad faith because it dislikes decisions being taken by the Linux organisation, not because they are actually dumb enough to think that a 3.4% line item for "linux kernel development" means that's all they spend on linux. Urgh.
  - walterbell 4y ago
    Could you recommend another article with a better breakdown of Linux spending by LF? It's not exactly a popular or risk-free topic for tech journalists, since many tech companies sponsor LF projects.
    - throwaway82652 4y ago
      You can just look up the Linux Foundation's tax statements, they're publicly available. Bryan Lunduke's recent writings are a bad source, they consist almost entirely of reactionary trolling. No idea why he gets any readership.
      - overboard2 4y ago
        What is reactionary trolling, why is it bad, and why are his articles an example of it?
        throwaway82652 4y ago
        It's the same kind of unsourced low-information content focused on personal grievances that you would find in an angry twitter or 4chan comment. It's just intellectually lazy and bad writing, this person is smart enough not to do it but does it anyway. If you need me to explain why this is undesirable, then we probably don't have much else to talk about.
        robonerd 4y ago
        > unsourced low-information content Pot, meet kettle. > From the lawyers I've spoken to about this, Linus's view on the GPL and the chosen enforcement strategy has long been known to be nonsense. Unsourced. Low information content. You're throwing a whole lot of vague shade around in this thread. overboard2 asked you for an example, that was an opportunity to get specific, but your response is to make vague comparisons to 4chan?
        throwaway82652 4y ago
        >Pot, meet kettle. No, this is incredibly wrong. The source here is me. You can choose to not believe me, but it's a source. I'm sorry but I just don't illegally carry a tape recorder into every meeting I go to just to prove something to a person on the internet. If you want me to elaborate then just ask a specific question, please stop with these "gotcha" tactics because they don't do anything. If you were referring to this person's writings, the article that was already posted is a source.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    I’m not sure what that tells you in the best case though.. They could surely break out a line for Kernel, but then does the investment in Automotive Grade Linux count? Or Civil Infrastructure Project? Or whatever that new OpenSSF project is? If they spend $10M on hosting OSSNA, should that count? Does money spent supporting K8s somehow detract from the kernel work? It’s just such a weird flawed premise of a measure I can’t imagine how it’d be useful in determining anything about their motivations.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  Even if you consider all the information in the linked article, the 3.4% is misleading. There's no indication that 100% of the linux-related work the Linux Foundation does falls into the 'linux kernel support' bucket. More to the point, the foundation's web site doesn't say that its mission relates to Linux. It talks about software communities, open source etc.
  - walterbell 4y ago
    It would be helpful for LF to provide a summary of Linux-related spending that is distinct from kernel development. Obviously not an easy line to draw, but better that LF draws the line than external observers.
MichaelBurge 4y ago
"Something untoward" is a bit vague. You have to specify who's being threatened at the very least. * For project maintainers: The SF Conservancy can't prevent developers from working on their own project, because it is GPL-licensed and copyright holders can't retract GPL licensing once it's been given. * For end-users: The GPL is a copyright license, not a EULA. So it only affects developers. * For businesses that distribute software with changes: The risk of being sued by a copyright troll that buys the rights isn't an existential risk, because they can always keep using and fork an old GPL'd version.
- dolni 4y ago
  > * For project maintainers: The SF Conservancy can't prevent developers from working on their own project, because it is GPL-licensed and copyright holders can't retract GPL licensing once it's been given. No, they can't retract your permission to use your own software, but they can prevent you from going after infringing parties if SF Conservancy holds the copyright. And at that point, why assign them copyright at all?
  - lakecresva 4y ago
    Because 99.9% of developers aren't willing to suffer the time and expense of investigating violations and enforcing their copyrights in federal court.
    - dolni 4y ago
      So why can't the SF Conservancy assist by making resources available to developers who are interested? If pro bono legal representation were provided, I wager a number of developers would take up that offer.
      - lakecresva 4y ago
        I can't speak for them, but I can tell you that would add an enormous amount of overhead and risk for the lawyers involved. If you assign them your copyrights, their job is just to find GPL violations from the pool of projects they have the rights to and then initiate an action in court, which they do for a living. Without assignment, they can no longer proactively investigate with any reasonable chance of success, and they have to find a violation that's in a goldilocks zone; they need a GPL author whose rights have been violated and is willing to make a long term commitment to actively participating in litigation, that they know will communicate with them as needed, and who won't suddenly move to Nepal or be convinced by people online that they need to drop the suit or something.
astrange 4y ago
Your heirs can always get it back in 35 years using copyright termination.

walterbell 4y ago

Prior instance of principal-agent problem in open-source, https://lunduke.substack.com/p/linux-foundation-spends-just-34-of https://lunduke.substack.com/p/linux-foundation-spends-just-... > The Linux Foundation — the organization that effectively controls Linux and employs the creator of Linux — only spends 3.4% [of $177M] on… Linux. Is the proposed SFC copyright assignment intended to be temporary, e.g. could it be returned to the creator after a legal case is won? Why is it not sufficient for SFC to represent the copyright owner? Would joint/minority ownership be an option? Leaving aside legal concerns, could code maintainers possibly lose the ability to steward their OSS community and set governance policy, after they surrender copyright?

skrtskrt 4y ago
They also run training courses and certificates through that that horrific EdX website… blecch
swores 4y ago
You've linked to an article that is very clearly written in bad faith because it dislikes decisions being taken by the Linux organisation, not because they are actually dumb enough to think that a 3.4% line item for "linux kernel development" means that's all they spend on linux. Urgh.
- walterbell 4y ago
  Could you recommend another article with a better breakdown of Linux spending by LF? It's not exactly a popular or risk-free topic for tech journalists, since many tech companies sponsor LF projects.
  - throwaway82652 4y ago
    You can just look up the Linux Foundation's tax statements, they're publicly available. Bryan Lunduke's recent writings are a bad source, they consist almost entirely of reactionary trolling. No idea why he gets any readership.
    - overboard2 4y ago
      What is reactionary trolling, why is it bad, and why are his articles an example of it?
      - throwaway82652 4y ago
        It's the same kind of unsourced low-information content focused on personal grievances that you would find in an angry twitter or 4chan comment. It's just intellectually lazy and bad writing, this person is smart enough not to do it but does it anyway. If you need me to explain why this is undesirable, then we probably don't have much else to talk about.
        robonerd 4y ago
        > unsourced low-information content Pot, meet kettle. > From the lawyers I've spoken to about this, Linus's view on the GPL and the chosen enforcement strategy has long been known to be nonsense. Unsourced. Low information content. You're throwing a whole lot of vague shade around in this thread. overboard2 asked you for an example, that was an opportunity to get specific, but your response is to make vague comparisons to 4chan?
        throwaway82652 4y ago
        >Pot, meet kettle. No, this is incredibly wrong. The source here is me. You can choose to not believe me, but it's a source. I'm sorry but I just don't illegally carry a tape recorder into every meeting I go to just to prove something to a person on the internet. If you want me to elaborate then just ask a specific question, please stop with these "gotcha" tactics because they don't do anything. If you were referring to this person's writings, the article that was already posted is a source.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  I’m not sure what that tells you in the best case though.. They could surely break out a line for Kernel, but then does the investment in Automotive Grade Linux count? Or Civil Infrastructure Project? Or whatever that new OpenSSF project is? If they spend $10M on hosting OSSNA, should that count? Does money spent supporting K8s somehow detract from the kernel work? It’s just such a weird flawed premise of a measure I can’t imagine how it’d be useful in determining anything about their motivations.
rahimnathwani 4y ago
Even if you consider all the information in the linked article, the 3.4% is misleading. There's no indication that 100% of the linux-related work the Linux Foundation does falls into the 'linux kernel support' bucket. More to the point, the foundation's web site doesn't say that its mission relates to Linux. It talks about software communities, open source etc.
- walterbell 4y ago
  It would be helpful for LF to provide a summary of Linux-related spending that is distinct from kernel development. Obviously not an easy line to draw, but better that LF draws the line than external observers.

MichaelBurge 4y ago

"Something untoward" is a bit vague. You have to specify who's being threatened at the very least. * For project maintainers: The SF Conservancy can't prevent developers from working on their own project, because it is GPL-licensed and copyright holders can't retract GPL licensing once it's been given. * For end-users: The GPL is a copyright license, not a EULA. So it only affects developers. * For businesses that distribute software with changes: The risk of being sued by a copyright troll that buys the rights isn't an existential risk, because they can always keep using and fork an old GPL'd version.

dolni 4y ago
> * For project maintainers: The SF Conservancy can't prevent developers from working on their own project, because it is GPL-licensed and copyright holders can't retract GPL licensing once it's been given. No, they can't retract your permission to use your own software, but they can prevent you from going after infringing parties if SF Conservancy holds the copyright. And at that point, why assign them copyright at all?
- lakecresva 4y ago
  Because 99.9% of developers aren't willing to suffer the time and expense of investigating violations and enforcing their copyrights in federal court.
  - dolni 4y ago
    So why can't the SF Conservancy assist by making resources available to developers who are interested? If pro bono legal representation were provided, I wager a number of developers would take up that offer.
    - lakecresva 4y ago
      I can't speak for them, but I can tell you that would add an enormous amount of overhead and risk for the lawyers involved. If you assign them your copyrights, their job is just to find GPL violations from the pool of projects they have the rights to and then initiate an action in court, which they do for a living. Without assignment, they can no longer proactively investigate with any reasonable chance of success, and they have to find a violation that's in a goldilocks zone; they need a GPL author whose rights have been violated and is willing to make a long term commitment to actively participating in litigation, that they know will communicate with them as needed, and who won't suddenly move to Nepal or be convinced by people online that they need to drop the suit or something.

astrange 4y ago

Your heirs can always get it back in 35 years using copyright termination.