6 ms·

> of course, and I had to do it- RIGHT THAT MINUTE- in the middle of the night. There is your problem right there. Why in your sane mind would you even conside

by SoupIce 15y ago

> of course, and I had to do it- RIGHT THAT MINUTE- in the middle of the night. There is your problem right there. Why in your sane mind would you even consider fixing it at that moment? You should have told them to FUCK OFF - right at that minute - and gone back to sleep. Right there and then a loud and sound go fuck a rake and fuck off.

nirvana 15y ago
You're absolutely right. It would have meant I lost my job. When Bezos is posting on a ticket, everyone knows it. All the pressure rolled downhill right onto me. This means that, even if I did tell them to fuck off, I wouldn't have been able to get back to sleep. On some level I would have felt I was shirking my duties, and after all, I'd lobbied hard to get it fixed, months before. I think, ultimately, it is kind of like an abusive relationship. People stay in them because they are manipulated by the abuser. Amazon has a manipulative corporate culture. It's a little bit like a cult. I'm actually a bit hesitant to talk about this, even years later, because I expect to be attacked for it. (But I'm still pissed off, years later. And I don't really hold grudges, normally.)
- 0x12 15y ago
  > I think, ultimately, it is kind of like an abusive relationship. That is exactly what it is. I hope that your posting here will get read by lots of people at amazon that are treated like you were (or worse?) and that it will open their eyes. One problem of being in an abusive relationship is that you no longer see it as such.
- davedx 15y ago
  Having worked for companies like this, I know exactly what you mean. Even the anger, 3-4 years after leaving one of them, is still there. It's a bit crazy, but then, this is somewhere you spend 1/2 of your waking life....
- chernevik 15y ago
  I _hope_ I would I told my boss to check his email. Then I'd send him, cc: Bezos, a copy of the email from two months ago. I'd note that I'd done _my_ job, and that I wouldn't be _told_ to do someone else's, for free. If this meant I wasn't their kind of employee then they weren't my kind of employer. I don't know that I'd actually have the stones for it. But that would be the right choice. I imagine you'd agree, better to get fired, then and there, than be pissed about it for years.
  - bronson 15y ago
    Any time you make your boss look like a chump, you lose.
    - CamperBob 15y ago
      Unless you do so by making yourself look good to his boss.
- look_lookatme 15y ago
  I wouldn't have told them to fuck off, but I'd have thought long and hard about the politics of the situation and what sort of edge I have (if my situation was as dire as yours was made to be). It seems like that could have been your moment. You don't like politics, but it seems like at some point you have to come to terms with the necessity of politics to effect change in a situation, that is to say if it's worth it. You clearly have an opinion on how things should be done. Bottling that sort of stuff up is toxic. Anyway, glad you are out of that mess.
  - nirvana 15y ago
    I think in a healthy, functioning, company there is some politics. The thing about amazon is, it doesn't matter to anyone that I had pointed this out months ago. From my boss up to the person who reported to Bezos, every one of them would be embarrassed by it, but what could I do? Threaten to tell Jeff Bezos? He doesn't care. He was in the ticket and they were all pointing the finger at me. Me coming back and say "But, I pointed it out months ago"... would result in "therefore its your fault because you weren't persuasive enough!" You can't make people take responsibility. Hell, Bezos would probably say I should have made the change anyway "You failed to take initiative". But if I had made the change, I would have been fired "You're not a team player". Asscovering is the rule of the day and its very easy in that environment.
    - potatolicious 15y ago
      > ""But, I pointed it out months ago"... would result in "therefore its your fault because you weren't persuasive enough!"" And then this would get noted in your performance review. Weakness: bias for action.
      - nirvana 15y ago
        Absolutely. Hell, at one point, praise for me from a former manager in a performance review was twisted around and used against me. If I never hear the phrase "Bias for action" again, I'll be happy. (Though I laughed when you used it.)
- aphexairlines 15y ago
  > I'm actually a bit hesitant to talk about this, even years later, because I expect to be attacked for it. A bit unfair, don't you think? There have been several HN threads about Amazon in the last few months where former employees chimed in, and nobody has been maligned for it.
  - dasil003 15y ago
    Unfair to whom? It'd say it's more like PTSD.
  - nirvana 15y ago
    I have mentioned this in the past, on HN, though much more briefly, and was attacked for it. (Though this was on a previous HN account.) I don't consider HN to be a very receptive environment, especially if you're saying anything perceived as "negative" about certain companies, including Amazon, Google, Facebook etc. Though it varies widely, of course.
- Steer 15y ago
  Nirvana, I'm very impressed by your latest answer which shows a lot of maturity and knowledge about yourself. It is so very easy to write "well, I would have told them to fuck off", but in my experience very few people do that in reality, regardless of what they say when not in that specific situation. I agree that it is quite like an abusive relationship which is of course why you should get the hell out of there. Nothing you say or do will change the other part in the relationship (amazon in this case) and you should just learn your lessons and move on. Although your employment at Amazon is not something that you look back on with fond feelings perhaps you can agree that it is something that has taught you a lot and in that regard was a good thing for you?
- buff-a 15y ago
  Saying "No" to my boss on a significant issue that got me fired was the most important thing I have ever done in my life.
- jarek 15y ago
  Re: the abusive relationship, that's exactly how a lot of bad employment situations work. The parallels are pretty much perfect. This post really opened my eyes about how this kind of situation is set up: http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html
sethg 15y ago
I think that in general, when you’re in a toxic work environment, you either realize it’s toxic or you don’t. If you don’t realize it’s toxic, then you are likely to assume that anything the boss blames on you really is your own fault, so you try to be a good team player, which is generally inconsistent with telling the boss to fuck off. If you do realize it’s toxic, then you will be looking for another job—but you don’t want to do anything that would get you fired before you can quit with dignity.
chrisbennet 15y ago
This quote comes to mind: "A failure of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine."

by SoupIce 15y ago

nirvana 15y ago

You're absolutely right. It would have meant I lost my job. When Bezos is posting on a ticket, everyone knows it. All the pressure rolled downhill right onto me. This means that, even if I did tell them to fuck off, I wouldn't have been able to get back to sleep. On some level I would have felt I was shirking my duties, and after all, I'd lobbied hard to get it fixed, months before. I think, ultimately, it is kind of like an abusive relationship. People stay in them because they are manipulated by the abuser. Amazon has a manipulative corporate culture. It's a little bit like a cult. I'm actually a bit hesitant to talk about this, even years later, because I expect to be attacked for it. (But I'm still pissed off, years later. And I don't really hold grudges, normally.)

0x12 15y ago
> I think, ultimately, it is kind of like an abusive relationship. That is exactly what it is. I hope that your posting here will get read by lots of people at amazon that are treated like you were (or worse?) and that it will open their eyes. One problem of being in an abusive relationship is that you no longer see it as such.
davedx 15y ago
Having worked for companies like this, I know exactly what you mean. Even the anger, 3-4 years after leaving one of them, is still there. It's a bit crazy, but then, this is somewhere you spend 1/2 of your waking life....
chernevik 15y ago
I _hope_ I would I told my boss to check his email. Then I'd send him, cc: Bezos, a copy of the email from two months ago. I'd note that I'd done _my_ job, and that I wouldn't be _told_ to do someone else's, for free. If this meant I wasn't their kind of employee then they weren't my kind of employer. I don't know that I'd actually have the stones for it. But that would be the right choice. I imagine you'd agree, better to get fired, then and there, than be pissed about it for years.
- bronson 15y ago
  Any time you make your boss look like a chump, you lose.
  - CamperBob 15y ago
    Unless you do so by making yourself look good to his boss.
look_lookatme 15y ago
I wouldn't have told them to fuck off, but I'd have thought long and hard about the politics of the situation and what sort of edge I have (if my situation was as dire as yours was made to be). It seems like that could have been your moment. You don't like politics, but it seems like at some point you have to come to terms with the necessity of politics to effect change in a situation, that is to say if it's worth it. You clearly have an opinion on how things should be done. Bottling that sort of stuff up is toxic. Anyway, glad you are out of that mess.
- nirvana 15y ago
  I think in a healthy, functioning, company there is some politics. The thing about amazon is, it doesn't matter to anyone that I had pointed this out months ago. From my boss up to the person who reported to Bezos, every one of them would be embarrassed by it, but what could I do? Threaten to tell Jeff Bezos? He doesn't care. He was in the ticket and they were all pointing the finger at me. Me coming back and say "But, I pointed it out months ago"... would result in "therefore its your fault because you weren't persuasive enough!" You can't make people take responsibility. Hell, Bezos would probably say I should have made the change anyway "You failed to take initiative". But if I had made the change, I would have been fired "You're not a team player". Asscovering is the rule of the day and its very easy in that environment.
  - potatolicious 15y ago
    > ""But, I pointed it out months ago"... would result in "therefore its your fault because you weren't persuasive enough!"" And then this would get noted in your performance review. Weakness: bias for action.
    - nirvana 15y ago
      Absolutely. Hell, at one point, praise for me from a former manager in a performance review was twisted around and used against me. If I never hear the phrase "Bias for action" again, I'll be happy. (Though I laughed when you used it.)
aphexairlines 15y ago
> I'm actually a bit hesitant to talk about this, even years later, because I expect to be attacked for it. A bit unfair, don't you think? There have been several HN threads about Amazon in the last few months where former employees chimed in, and nobody has been maligned for it.
- dasil003 15y ago
  Unfair to whom? It'd say it's more like PTSD.
- nirvana 15y ago
  I have mentioned this in the past, on HN, though much more briefly, and was attacked for it. (Though this was on a previous HN account.) I don't consider HN to be a very receptive environment, especially if you're saying anything perceived as "negative" about certain companies, including Amazon, Google, Facebook etc. Though it varies widely, of course.
Steer 15y ago
Nirvana, I'm very impressed by your latest answer which shows a lot of maturity and knowledge about yourself. It is so very easy to write "well, I would have told them to fuck off", but in my experience very few people do that in reality, regardless of what they say when not in that specific situation. I agree that it is quite like an abusive relationship which is of course why you should get the hell out of there. Nothing you say or do will change the other part in the relationship (amazon in this case) and you should just learn your lessons and move on. Although your employment at Amazon is not something that you look back on with fond feelings perhaps you can agree that it is something that has taught you a lot and in that regard was a good thing for you?
buff-a 15y ago
Saying "No" to my boss on a significant issue that got me fired was the most important thing I have ever done in my life.
jarek 15y ago
Re: the abusive relationship, that's exactly how a lot of bad employment situations work. The parallels are pretty much perfect. This post really opened my eyes about how this kind of situation is set up: http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html

sethg 15y ago

I think that in general, when you’re in a toxic work environment, you either realize it’s toxic or you don’t. If you don’t realize it’s toxic, then you are likely to assume that anything the boss blames on you really is your own fault, so you try to be a good team player, which is generally inconsistent with telling the boss to fuck off. If you do realize it’s toxic, then you will be looking for another job—but you don’t want to do anything that would get you fired before you can quit with dignity.

chrisbennet 15y ago

This quote comes to mind: "A failure of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine."