6 ms·

It does not really matter what your stance on that topic is. If your co-workers don't what to be called a certain way, just respect that. E.g. I don't want to b

by fosefx 4y ago

It does not really matter what your stance on that topic is. If your co-workers don't what to be called a certain way, just respect that. E.g. I don't want to be called by my full first name but rather a short version of it. If you deliberately disrespect my request that is simply hostile.

bradleyjg 4y ago
Somehow Gen Z gets a free pass to refer to everyone as they, regardless of that fact that some of us would rather not be referred to that way. The norms are not as straightforward as you claim.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  I have taken to referring to everyone as "they". It's much easier than trying to remember individual pronouns for everyone. It doesn't really seem reasonable to me for people to be bothered by this. Your view is that people must refer to your gender when speaking about you?
  - bradleyjg 4y ago
    It doesn’t seem reasonable to me for people to get offended if I use the pronouns that best match the gender presentation I see. This is what English speakers have been doing since there have been English speakers. But there are people out there that tell me it is bothersome. Out of respect, I modify how I speak and write. Why shouldn’t I get the same courtesy?
  - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
    >> I have taken to referring to everyone as "they". It's much easier than trying to remember individual pronouns for everyone. It doesn't really seem reasonable to me for people to be bothered by this. Your view is that people must refer to your gender when speaking about you? What is the point of specifying pronouns then? Isn't this just a lazy form of misgendering? Instead of using someone's name you could just refer to everyone as "Hey You", but that seems discourteous and disrespectful. Why not just use their preferred name and pronouns?
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      > Isn't this just a lazy form of misgendering? No, because "they" isn't gender-specific. It's not referring to someone by the wrong gender, it's not referring to them by their gender at all. > What is the point of specifying pronouns then? I'd argue that there probably isn't much point. Why do we refer to people by their gender? No idea. It doesn't make any sense to me.
      - bradleyjg 4y ago
        No, because "they" isn't gender-specific. When used as a singular it’s the pronoun for people that identify as non binary. You are absolutely misgendering people but you get a free pass because contra fosefx this whole pronoun thing is about power and who has it, rather than universal respect.
        nicoburns 4y ago
        > When used as a singular it’s the pronoun for people that identify as non binary. It can be used for this, but it's also used for someone of indeterminate gender or if you simply don't want to mention their gender. For example: "Oooh, that's such a beautiful baby, are they a boy or a girl" "Does your friend want to buy my phone? You said they were interested?"
        bradleyjg 4y ago
        But I am not an unknown person. If you know who I am and you’ve had an opportunity to see my preferred pronouns but choose to disregard those preferences you’ve misgendered me the same as if you’d referred to a transwomen as he.
        nicoburns 4y ago
        > you’ve misgendered me the same as if you’d referred to a transwomen as he. I think it's more analogous to referring to a transwoman as "they", which I also do. "They" does not gender you at all, so it can't misgender you. I don't think you (or anyone else be they cisgender or transgender) have a right be referred to by your gender, whether you prefer it or not. I think that's different to be referred to by a gender you consider worng. In that case someone is actively labelling you as a gender. By calling you "they" I'm saying I think you're genderless, whereas by calling someone "he" I think you are saying you think they're male. If you had a strong preference to be referred to by your gender then I probably would make an effort to do that, but I don't think you are owed that (to be honest I wish trans people weren't so hung up on pronouns too - I think it's silly to be so fussy about language - but I have seen cases where they're used maliciously so I can somewhat understand why they are).
- tomrod 4y ago
  It sure would be great if English could be simplified to remove gendered pronouns. In Tagalog, it/she/he is a simple word, "siya" (pronounced "sha" if said quickly).
- mcronce 4y ago
  How is this a gen Z thing? Singular "they" has been around as a gender-neutral pronoun for, literally, hundreds of years.
  - bradleyjg 4y ago
    This is a commonly made point, but is misleading. The historical usage is for a hypothetical or unknown referent not a specific, known person. Furthermore, generic he has also been around for hundreds of years. So we should keep using that too, right?
    - mcronce 4y ago
      > This is a commonly made point, but is misleading. The historical usage is for a hypothetical or unknown referent not a specific, known person. This seems less like a material distinction and more like something that transphobic people would bring up to support their ideology. > Furthermore, generic he has also been around for hundreds of years. So we should keep using that too, right? My point was that it isn't new or somehow "a gen Z thing", not "all old things are good"
      - bradleyjg 4y ago
        transphobic people transphobic people would bring up to support their ideology No one has said anything about trans people, we were talking Gen z butchering the English language. Also, is it a disorder (“phobic”) or an ideology? Or do you not understand that distinction either?
        mcronce 4y ago
        Transphobia, much like homophobia, refers to an ideology, not an actual fear. Nice try getting on your prescriptivist high horse, though.
eppp 4y ago
How far does this extend in reasonableness though? If my co-worker asked me to refer to them as "your highness" for example?
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  Has that ever happened? What is the point of this hypothetical?
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    I think the idea is that you do not believe your coworker to be royalty, in the same way you do not believe them to be male/female. Even if there is no harm in calling them ‘your majesty’ it doesn’t feel right.
    - eppp 4y ago
      I think my point is more that there are tons of various requirements that people have that are at best unreasonable and as a society we don't indulge every request that people make. One day someone comes in and says I must now refer to them as xe or emself after years of knowing them without mistake is not reasonable. I still refer to lots of women as their maiden names because that how I remember them. It isnt out of meanness or vitriol. That is just the label my brain still applies to them because I knew them for many years as that. I dont care if you are male or female or whatever you want to be. I just want everyone to be happy to the extent they can be, but be tolerant of those who remember you as you were to them as well. It isnt just a switch you can turn off instantly.
      - jakelazaroff 4y ago
        > One day someone comes in and says I must now refer to them as xe or emself after years of knowing them without mistake is not reasonable. This seems to be a common fear, but it’s not rooted in reality. As long as you make a good faith effort, no one is going to get mad at you for messing up their pronouns. You might get corrected; just apologize and move on. It’s not a big deal. If someone suspects you’re messing up in bad faith, they might be harsher with you. Which is, I think, entirely reasonable. Maybe you have friends who wrongly assume bad faith when you mess up. I’ve never seen that happen, but that’s not to say it doesn’t! You could have some shitty friends who don’t give you the benefit of the doubt. But comments like that “your highness” hypothetical really aren’t doing you any favors. (People on Twitter probably assume drive-by repliers are speaking in bad faith by default; that is, unfortunately, just a feature of the Internet)

by fosefx 4y ago

bradleyjg 4y ago

Somehow Gen Z gets a free pass to refer to everyone as they, regardless of that fact that some of us would rather not be referred to that way. The norms are not as straightforward as you claim.

nicoburns 4y ago
I have taken to referring to everyone as "they". It's much easier than trying to remember individual pronouns for everyone. It doesn't really seem reasonable to me for people to be bothered by this. Your view is that people must refer to your gender when speaking about you?
- bradleyjg 4y ago
  It doesn’t seem reasonable to me for people to get offended if I use the pronouns that best match the gender presentation I see. This is what English speakers have been doing since there have been English speakers. But there are people out there that tell me it is bothersome. Out of respect, I modify how I speak and write. Why shouldn’t I get the same courtesy?
- thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  >> I have taken to referring to everyone as "they". It's much easier than trying to remember individual pronouns for everyone. It doesn't really seem reasonable to me for people to be bothered by this. Your view is that people must refer to your gender when speaking about you? What is the point of specifying pronouns then? Isn't this just a lazy form of misgendering? Instead of using someone's name you could just refer to everyone as "Hey You", but that seems discourteous and disrespectful. Why not just use their preferred name and pronouns?
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    > Isn't this just a lazy form of misgendering? No, because "they" isn't gender-specific. It's not referring to someone by the wrong gender, it's not referring to them by their gender at all. > What is the point of specifying pronouns then? I'd argue that there probably isn't much point. Why do we refer to people by their gender? No idea. It doesn't make any sense to me.
    - bradleyjg 4y ago
      No, because "they" isn't gender-specific. When used as a singular it’s the pronoun for people that identify as non binary. You are absolutely misgendering people but you get a free pass because contra fosefx this whole pronoun thing is about power and who has it, rather than universal respect.
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        > When used as a singular it’s the pronoun for people that identify as non binary. It can be used for this, but it's also used for someone of indeterminate gender or if you simply don't want to mention their gender. For example: "Oooh, that's such a beautiful baby, are they a boy or a girl" "Does your friend want to buy my phone? You said they were interested?"
        bradleyjg 4y ago
        But I am not an unknown person. If you know who I am and you’ve had an opportunity to see my preferred pronouns but choose to disregard those preferences you’ve misgendered me the same as if you’d referred to a transwomen as he.
        nicoburns 4y ago
        > you’ve misgendered me the same as if you’d referred to a transwomen as he. I think it's more analogous to referring to a transwoman as "they", which I also do. "They" does not gender you at all, so it can't misgender you. I don't think you (or anyone else be they cisgender or transgender) have a right be referred to by your gender, whether you prefer it or not. I think that's different to be referred to by a gender you consider worng. In that case someone is actively labelling you as a gender. By calling you "they" I'm saying I think you're genderless, whereas by calling someone "he" I think you are saying you think they're male. If you had a strong preference to be referred to by your gender then I probably would make an effort to do that, but I don't think you are owed that (to be honest I wish trans people weren't so hung up on pronouns too - I think it's silly to be so fussy about language - but I have seen cases where they're used maliciously so I can somewhat understand why they are).
tomrod 4y ago
It sure would be great if English could be simplified to remove gendered pronouns. In Tagalog, it/she/he is a simple word, "siya" (pronounced "sha" if said quickly).
mcronce 4y ago
How is this a gen Z thing? Singular "they" has been around as a gender-neutral pronoun for, literally, hundreds of years.
- bradleyjg 4y ago
  This is a commonly made point, but is misleading. The historical usage is for a hypothetical or unknown referent not a specific, known person. Furthermore, generic he has also been around for hundreds of years. So we should keep using that too, right?
  - mcronce 4y ago
    > This is a commonly made point, but is misleading. The historical usage is for a hypothetical or unknown referent not a specific, known person. This seems less like a material distinction and more like something that transphobic people would bring up to support their ideology. > Furthermore, generic he has also been around for hundreds of years. So we should keep using that too, right? My point was that it isn't new or somehow "a gen Z thing", not "all old things are good"
    - bradleyjg 4y ago
      transphobic people transphobic people would bring up to support their ideology No one has said anything about trans people, we were talking Gen z butchering the English language. Also, is it a disorder (“phobic”) or an ideology? Or do you not understand that distinction either?
      - mcronce 4y ago
        Transphobia, much like homophobia, refers to an ideology, not an actual fear. Nice try getting on your prescriptivist high horse, though.

eppp 4y ago

How far does this extend in reasonableness though? If my co-worker asked me to refer to them as "your highness" for example?

jakelazaroff 4y ago
Has that ever happened? What is the point of this hypothetical?
- Aeolun 4y ago
  I think the idea is that you do not believe your coworker to be royalty, in the same way you do not believe them to be male/female. Even if there is no harm in calling them ‘your majesty’ it doesn’t feel right.
  - eppp 4y ago
    I think my point is more that there are tons of various requirements that people have that are at best unreasonable and as a society we don't indulge every request that people make. One day someone comes in and says I must now refer to them as xe or emself after years of knowing them without mistake is not reasonable. I still refer to lots of women as their maiden names because that how I remember them. It isnt out of meanness or vitriol. That is just the label my brain still applies to them because I knew them for many years as that. I dont care if you are male or female or whatever you want to be. I just want everyone to be happy to the extent they can be, but be tolerant of those who remember you as you were to them as well. It isnt just a switch you can turn off instantly.
    - jakelazaroff 4y ago
      > One day someone comes in and says I must now refer to them as xe or emself after years of knowing them without mistake is not reasonable. This seems to be a common fear, but it’s not rooted in reality. As long as you make a good faith effort, no one is going to get mad at you for messing up their pronouns. You might get corrected; just apologize and move on. It’s not a big deal. If someone suspects you’re messing up in bad faith, they might be harsher with you. Which is, I think, entirely reasonable. Maybe you have friends who wrongly assume bad faith when you mess up. I’ve never seen that happen, but that’s not to say it doesn’t! You could have some shitty friends who don’t give you the benefit of the doubt. But comments like that “your highness” hypothetical really aren’t doing you any favors. (People on Twitter probably assume drive-by repliers are speaking in bad faith by default; that is, unfortunately, just a feature of the Internet)