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The CCP is watching this go down with the understanding that if they invade Taiwan the world won’t stop buying their stuff because money matters more than peopl

The CCP is watching this go down with the understanding that if they invade Taiwan the world won’t stop buying their stuff because money matters more than people.

hyperdunc 4y ago
It's also that Europeans aren't willing to suspend their gas-fuelled comforts.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  So, what are Americans suspending? After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. That being said: the problem is not necessarily gas-powered heating. The problem is an industry that is hugely dependant on gas, and - specific Ural-originated gas (yes, the factories can be modified to accept gas with a different chemical composition, but that takes time and money).
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    Actually, it was Russia tearing up the Budapest memorandum, which has far greater future consequences, as now everyone knows if you don’t have nukes you will be attacked.
  - crossroadsguy 4y ago
    Americans are suspending those skipped breaths during the minutes when they were busy registering their outrage online.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. Absolutely not. American expansionism got us into the migrant crisis mess, but Russia invading Ukraine is 100% on Russia.
  - rosndo 4y ago
    What American expansionism are you referring to? It’s been a long time since the US gained more territories.
    - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
      > What American expansionism are you referring to? It’s been a long time since the US gained more territories. In Puttin's point of view, any new NATO member is yet another US territory to deploy weapons from.
      - robbedpeter 4y ago
        Putin is a paranoid tyrant who should be put down like a rabid wolf. Nobody should care what Putin thinks or wants. After he's gone let's see what shakes out.
        ElectricalUnion 4y ago
        > Nobody should care what Putin thinks Exactly this. NATO literally ignored Putin. We unfortunately found that the events a while ago were the straw that broke the camel's back. Putin is now angry, and ignoring what he thinks or wants turned out to be stupid. > or wants. I don't think not caring about the Ukraine situation is the right call either.
        rosndo 4y ago
        > Putin is now angry, and ignoring what he thinks or wants turned out to be stupid. Did it really? NATO is now in a stronger position than ever.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. No, Russian expansionism is. NATO expansion is among the many (some mutually contradictory) excuses Russia has give for it's expansionism.
- ricardobayes 4y ago
  Well what do you suggest? An 80-year old man in Brussels should freeze to death in their apartment because Russia invaded Ukraine?
  - rosndo 4y ago
    Why would that 80-year old man just not wear more clothes instead of freezing to death? Is the implication that he lacks the mental capacity to do so because of old age? Does the old man just not own enough clothes? If so, why would gas prices be the problem instead of his lack of clothes?
  - hyperdunc 4y ago
    That's not where most of the gas is going. It would have been smart to invest in energy diversity before the war started. Too late for that now.
    - MrYellowP 4y ago
      > That's not where most of the gas is going. Translated: It doesn't matter if people freeze, to death or otherwise. I guess you also don't mind food shortages, as long as they don't affect you personally.
      - hyperdunc 4y ago
        Would you turn off all the gas? Are there no other ways to light the metaphorical fire? Isn't it interesting how you admit that the lives of so many depend on natural resources they don't control?
    - HyprMusic 4y ago
      It is overwhelmingly used for heating, followed by boiling water and cooking. Please spend 5 minutes googling before throwing out baseless claims. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Energy_consumption_in_households#Energy_consumption_in_households_by_type_of_end-use https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
- markvdb 4y ago
  I'd wager most Europeans are willing to sacrifice comforts. I'm not aware of EU wide polling around this theme, but look at page 7 of the latest Infratest-Dimap survey[0] for example. A majority of Germans want an oil boycott, even if that is forecast to bring a -3% negative effect on German GDP. The only population subgroup with a clear majority against a boycott are AfD supporters. [0] https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/user_upload/DT2204_Report.pdf https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/user_upload/DT2204_...
  - scandox 4y ago
    I haven't run my gas boiler in 30 days. No heating. No warm showers. Sadly most people I have suggested this to think I'm nuts. And Ireland isn't that cold.
    - beckman466 4y ago
      > I haven't run my gas boiler in 30 days. No heating. No warm showers. > Sadly most people I have suggested this to think I'm nuts. there's probably thousands of times more gas used to produce all the commodities you buy and use in your everyday life. so this strategy of individualist 'sacrifice' (vs. systemic change) is merely a fart in the wind.
      - ilammy 4y ago
        Exactly. Thank you for reusing cardboard while the airlines fly empty planes just to maintain their slots. It makes you feel better for having a moral high ground, sure. Objectively it's not that big of a change, while systemic social changes take time. For the most people, it feels like not in their lifetime.
      - scandox 4y ago
        40% of gas usage in Europe is domestic. I think that's not insignificant. I agree my individual action is not very relevant but I think a widespread adoption of such measures would have an impact on political thinking in Europe. Obviously that hasn't happened.
      - 4y ago
- sitic 4y ago
  Have a look at Italy. 40% of the electricity is generated from natural gas, which largely comes from Russia. https://ember-climate.org/data/data-explorer/ https://ember-climate.org/data/data-explorer/ https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-italy-milan-lifestyle-5f7febf726aa02df8cb9d9599cfe3912 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-italy-mil... How could one overcome this in a short period of time without shutting down the whole economy? These aren't "comforts", they are necessities.
croes 4y ago
You do realize what all comes from China. A sudden stop would have a bigger effect that just losing money. The pandemic already showed that. This can only be solved in the long run and not in the short term. But I doubt that will happen because this wouldn't need questioning the principles of capitalism. Totalitarianism and capitalism always worked well together.
- Hypocritelefty 4y ago
- CryptoPunk 4y ago
  >>Totalitarianism and capitalism always worked well together. The most totalitarian states were the most anti-capitalist. Capitalism means tolerating the emergence of independent centers of economic power, which is a threat to totalitarian control. That is why the PRC has been arresting wealthy tech founder-CEOs in China.
  - croes 4y ago
    I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean that the totalitarian and capitalist state are the same but capitalist states work well together with totalitarian states. Cheap labor is easier to get in totalitarian states, that's why China is the workbench of the world and that's why the FRG let produce in the GDR and even gave it credits so that the production could continue.
    - CryptoPunk 4y ago
      Okay I understand your point. I think you're technically right, but what you're implying is not. States following all kinds of economic systems work well together. For example, Venezuela works well with Russia and China, and is a fully socialist state. And while you are right about capitalist states benefiting from the cheap labor of totalitarian states, capitalist states benefit even more from the capital skilled work forces from other capitalist states.
  - quantum_solanum 4y ago
Synaesthesia 4y ago
Did the world stop buying US products when it carried out worse crimes than Russia ie invading Iraq or Vietnam?
- eadmund 4y ago
  The U.S. did not invade Vietnam; it assisted the Republic of Vietnam in its self-defense against the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. North Vietnam was the aggressor. The U.S. did invade Iraq, using the authority granted in U.N. resolution 678. That was not a crime either, because it was carried out legally.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    "Russia did not invade Ukraine; it assisted the Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic in their self-defense against Ukraine. Ukraine was the aggressor." These rules get real slippery real fast. If your entire position is based on a slanted reading of some minor detail of obscure legalese, don't be surprised when evil people use the legalese against you
  - Synaesthesia 4y ago
    It invaded me attacked South Vietnam to stop a national uprising there, that was 1961, after some time the war did expand to North Vietnam and the rest of Indochina. Saying it was legal and not an invasion, because the client regime invited them, is like saying the Soviet Union never invaded Afghanistan, because they were also invited and it was ‘legal’. They were crimes, the two biggest crimes since WW2
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Saying it was legal and not an invasion, because the client regime invited them, is like saying the Soviet Union never invaded Afghanistan, because they were also invited and it was ‘legal’. While Afghanistan was a Soviet client state before the Soviet-Afghan war, that War started with a successful decapitation strike by the USSR against the Afghan regime, so it’s not really analogous to the US war in South Vietnam.

The CCP is watching this go down with the understanding that if they invade Taiwan the world won’t stop buying their stuff because money matters more than people.

hyperdunc 4y ago

It's also that Europeans aren't willing to suspend their gas-fuelled comforts.

DocTomoe 4y ago
So, what are Americans suspending? After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. That being said: the problem is not necessarily gas-powered heating. The problem is an industry that is hugely dependant on gas, and - specific Ural-originated gas (yes, the factories can be modified to accept gas with a different chemical composition, but that takes time and money).
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Actually, it was Russia tearing up the Budapest memorandum, which has far greater future consequences, as now everyone knows if you don’t have nukes you will be attacked.
- crossroadsguy 4y ago
  Americans are suspending those skipped breaths during the minutes when they were busy registering their outrage online.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. Absolutely not. American expansionism got us into the migrant crisis mess, but Russia invading Ukraine is 100% on Russia.
- rosndo 4y ago
  What American expansionism are you referring to? It’s been a long time since the US gained more territories.
  - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
    > What American expansionism are you referring to? It’s been a long time since the US gained more territories. In Puttin's point of view, any new NATO member is yet another US territory to deploy weapons from.
    - robbedpeter 4y ago
      Putin is a paranoid tyrant who should be put down like a rabid wolf. Nobody should care what Putin thinks or wants. After he's gone let's see what shakes out.
      - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
        > Nobody should care what Putin thinks Exactly this. NATO literally ignored Putin. We unfortunately found that the events a while ago were the straw that broke the camel's back. Putin is now angry, and ignoring what he thinks or wants turned out to be stupid. > or wants. I don't think not caring about the Ukraine situation is the right call either.
        rosndo 4y ago
        > Putin is now angry, and ignoring what he thinks or wants turned out to be stupid. Did it really? NATO is now in a stronger position than ever.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > After all, American expansionism is what got us into this mess. No, Russian expansionism is. NATO expansion is among the many (some mutually contradictory) excuses Russia has give for it's expansionism.
ricardobayes 4y ago
Well what do you suggest? An 80-year old man in Brussels should freeze to death in their apartment because Russia invaded Ukraine?
- rosndo 4y ago
  Why would that 80-year old man just not wear more clothes instead of freezing to death? Is the implication that he lacks the mental capacity to do so because of old age? Does the old man just not own enough clothes? If so, why would gas prices be the problem instead of his lack of clothes?
- hyperdunc 4y ago
  That's not where most of the gas is going. It would have been smart to invest in energy diversity before the war started. Too late for that now.
  - MrYellowP 4y ago
    > That's not where most of the gas is going. Translated: It doesn't matter if people freeze, to death or otherwise. I guess you also don't mind food shortages, as long as they don't affect you personally.
    - hyperdunc 4y ago
      Would you turn off all the gas? Are there no other ways to light the metaphorical fire? Isn't it interesting how you admit that the lives of so many depend on natural resources they don't control?
  - HyprMusic 4y ago
    It is overwhelmingly used for heating, followed by boiling water and cooking. Please spend 5 minutes googling before throwing out baseless claims. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Energy_consumption_in_households#Energy_consumption_in_households_by_type_of_end-use https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
markvdb 4y ago
I'd wager most Europeans are willing to sacrifice comforts. I'm not aware of EU wide polling around this theme, but look at page 7 of the latest Infratest-Dimap survey[0] for example. A majority of Germans want an oil boycott, even if that is forecast to bring a -3% negative effect on German GDP. The only population subgroup with a clear majority against a boycott are AfD supporters. [0] https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/user_upload/DT2204_Report.pdf https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/user_upload/DT2204_...
- scandox 4y ago
  I haven't run my gas boiler in 30 days. No heating. No warm showers. Sadly most people I have suggested this to think I'm nuts. And Ireland isn't that cold.
  - beckman466 4y ago
    > I haven't run my gas boiler in 30 days. No heating. No warm showers. > Sadly most people I have suggested this to think I'm nuts. there's probably thousands of times more gas used to produce all the commodities you buy and use in your everyday life. so this strategy of individualist 'sacrifice' (vs. systemic change) is merely a fart in the wind.
    - ilammy 4y ago
      Exactly. Thank you for reusing cardboard while the airlines fly empty planes just to maintain their slots. It makes you feel better for having a moral high ground, sure. Objectively it's not that big of a change, while systemic social changes take time. For the most people, it feels like not in their lifetime.
    - scandox 4y ago
      40% of gas usage in Europe is domestic. I think that's not insignificant. I agree my individual action is not very relevant but I think a widespread adoption of such measures would have an impact on political thinking in Europe. Obviously that hasn't happened.
    - 4y ago
sitic 4y ago
Have a look at Italy. 40% of the electricity is generated from natural gas, which largely comes from Russia. https://ember-climate.org/data/data-explorer/ https://ember-climate.org/data/data-explorer/ https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-italy-milan-lifestyle-5f7febf726aa02df8cb9d9599cfe3912 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-italy-mil... How could one overcome this in a short period of time without shutting down the whole economy? These aren't "comforts", they are necessities.

croes 4y ago

You do realize what all comes from China. A sudden stop would have a bigger effect that just losing money. The pandemic already showed that. This can only be solved in the long run and not in the short term. But I doubt that will happen because this wouldn't need questioning the principles of capitalism. Totalitarianism and capitalism always worked well together.

Hypocritelefty 4y ago
CryptoPunk 4y ago
>>Totalitarianism and capitalism always worked well together. The most totalitarian states were the most anti-capitalist. Capitalism means tolerating the emergence of independent centers of economic power, which is a threat to totalitarian control. That is why the PRC has been arresting wealthy tech founder-CEOs in China.
- croes 4y ago
  I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean that the totalitarian and capitalist state are the same but capitalist states work well together with totalitarian states. Cheap labor is easier to get in totalitarian states, that's why China is the workbench of the world and that's why the FRG let produce in the GDR and even gave it credits so that the production could continue.
  - CryptoPunk 4y ago
    Okay I understand your point. I think you're technically right, but what you're implying is not. States following all kinds of economic systems work well together. For example, Venezuela works well with Russia and China, and is a fully socialist state. And while you are right about capitalist states benefiting from the cheap labor of totalitarian states, capitalist states benefit even more from the capital skilled work forces from other capitalist states.
- quantum_solanum 4y ago

Synaesthesia 4y ago

Did the world stop buying US products when it carried out worse crimes than Russia ie invading Iraq or Vietnam?

eadmund 4y ago
The U.S. did not invade Vietnam; it assisted the Republic of Vietnam in its self-defense against the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. North Vietnam was the aggressor. The U.S. did invade Iraq, using the authority granted in U.N. resolution 678. That was not a crime either, because it was carried out legally.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  "Russia did not invade Ukraine; it assisted the Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic in their self-defense against Ukraine. Ukraine was the aggressor." These rules get real slippery real fast. If your entire position is based on a slanted reading of some minor detail of obscure legalese, don't be surprised when evil people use the legalese against you
- Synaesthesia 4y ago
  It invaded me attacked South Vietnam to stop a national uprising there, that was 1961, after some time the war did expand to North Vietnam and the rest of Indochina. Saying it was legal and not an invasion, because the client regime invited them, is like saying the Soviet Union never invaded Afghanistan, because they were also invited and it was ‘legal’. They were crimes, the two biggest crimes since WW2
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Saying it was legal and not an invasion, because the client regime invited them, is like saying the Soviet Union never invaded Afghanistan, because they were also invited and it was ‘legal’. While Afghanistan was a Soviet client state before the Soviet-Afghan war, that War started with a successful decapitation strike by the USSR against the Afghan regime, so it’s not really analogous to the US war in South Vietnam.