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Hiring manager here. IMO the current tech hiring norms are gross and not sustainable. It feels like a weird hazing ritual and with the current market, is the si

Hiring manager here. IMO the current tech hiring norms are gross and not sustainable. It feels like a weird hazing ritual and with the current market, is the single biggest reason you can't hire. Why on earth would someone burn a weekend on a take-home test for your startup when they have 15 other irons in the fire? At my current employer we got rid of all that ridiculousness. No take home test. No live coding. We've gotten the whole process down to a few hours over a few days. I'd like to think it's a mutually respectful process. I think it's time we accept that the person we are talking to is who they say they are on their resume. You don't see accountants balancing books before they get hired. Why should this be any different? If you aren't who you say you are, its either blatantly obvious in the interview or we'll find out when you join and we'll try to correct or part ways. This is like pretty much any other job out there.

anderber 4y ago
This sounds very forward thinking and I like it. Would you be willing to share a bit more on the process? What does it entail? In the past I was hired on just 2 interviews, and all we did was talk as peers. It felt comfortable and honest. It's the reason I said yes to switching positions.
- vikingcaffiene 4y ago
  Thanks! So, I'll say that we are still tweaking and trying to get things just right but, as of the time of me writing this, here is the process: - HR call 30 min. - Talk to hiring manager (me) 30 min. Get to know each other and feel out if there is a mutual fit. - Technical panel 1hr. Speak with several engineers on the team who share your discipline (front end or back end for example). Again no live coding. We just talk through stuff. - Talk to the team PM. 30 min. Get a sense of how you collaborate with our product team partners to build new features in our application. After that it's the usual comp negotiations, background, and reference checks. Assuming all that works out then hired! We're hiring so, if anyone is interested in finding out more, contact info is in my bio.
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    Sorry, but this just sounds very easy to bullshit. Unless you're doing real in depth quizzing of stuff people wouldn't know if they didn't work with it (e.g. in HFT, explaining what a potential implementation of std::string could be and what the tradeoffs of each design choice would be), generic backend principles are very easy to spew correct answers for without actually knowing how to code. How are you going to filter out people that just memorize the concepts for their chosen language and are good at talking but can't code for their life?
    - vikingcaffiene 4y ago
      > generic backend principles are very easy to spew correct answers for without actually knowing how to code I'm not sure I agree with this. IMO trying to get someone to explain the ins and outs of a particular facet of the technology your team works in is less effective than getting a sense of how a candidate architects their code and manages complexity. That type of "art more than a science" craftsmanship is not something you can easily fake in my experience. Maybe I'll be proven wrong. We shall see. So far I've had pretty good luck with the approach and gotten some really great teammates.
    - gorbachev 4y ago
      That's not my experience. It's almost always obvious whether the candidate really knows their stuff. They go into details, when you ask probing questions they don't revert back to generalities or repeat what they already said. Where this does not work, however, is interviewing junior developers. They don't really know anything at all yet (well, some do, but again, that's almost always quickly obvious), so you're hiring for potential rather than actual skills.
      - vikingcaffiene 4y ago
        Yeah you have to use the appropriate strategy for the interviewee. In the case of a junior, you are looking for potential and teachability as you said. You tailor your questions towards that angle. I've yet to see any take home or live coding challenge that answered those type of questions for me. All it told me is what I already knew: they were more junior and needed mentoring.
bobabob 4y ago
> I think it's time we accept that the person we are talking to is who they say they are on their resume. Yea because we live in a place where everyone is super honest and no one is going to try and take advantage of that to make 500k a year. IMO, it doesn't work. Talk is cheap. I wouldn't have a job if I had to talk my way into any company, I'm an introvert, I suck at communicating orally. But I can solve problems and write really good code. You throw problems at me during an interview and I'll solve them. Ultimately your company's code is not going to write itself.
- daenz 4y ago
  >Yea because we live in a place where everyone is super honest and no one is going to try and take advantage of that to make 500k a year. I would be THRILLED if I was put into some kind of a short probationary period, with limited access (and potentially restricted salary, with retroactive reimbursement) while I showed what I was worth. I personally have a hard time demonstrating that in short interviews, and it's only once I come in contact with the shape of the company's problems do I show my value. Imo it would lower the stress and paranoia on both sides over a candidate's fit.
  - nelsondev 4y ago
    That can work for some, but imagine you already have a job, and time commitments, and it takes 5-10 companies to find a fit. Spending ~1-2 months is expensive.
    - gorbachev 4y ago
      If a company temporarily paid higher salary and covered your health insurance during this probationary period to account for the risk, I'd go for it. Otherwise, never.
- vikingcaffiene 4y ago
  > Yea because we live in a place where everyone is super honest and no one is going to try and take advantage of that to make 500k a year. You are right that there is more risk with this approach. I honestly think that its a better, more humane way to do things though. Anecdotally, I've hired a couple _really_ solid developers via this methodology. At least in my case, it's been working out well. As always, you try stuff and iterate. > I'm an introvert, I suck at communicating orally. I get it. So am I. Its actually very hard for me to reply to these comments b/c of my general aversion to putting myself out there! I don't think there's a one size fits all solution. At my company at least, being able to communicate effectively both orally and written, is important. We do a lot of pairing and documentation etc. Thats not for everyone. YMMV.
brian-armstrong 4y ago
Going through a few days of grueling interviews every few years is vastly preferable to spending a few years working alongside people who can't pull their own weight. Hiring managers are timid about letting people go and it can take an extraordinary amount of time to part ways with unproductive people.
- vikingcaffiene 4y ago
  > Hiring managers are timid about letting people go and it can take an extraordinary amount of time to part ways with unproductive people. With respect, it sounds like you had a bad manager. Underperforming teammates are your managers responsibility. They should be working to address that issue with said teammate or part ways. Sucks. Not fun. It's the job though.
  - brian-armstrong 4y ago
    Sorry but your response is a No True Scotsman argument. It is understandable why irrational behavior applies here - sunk cost, nobody wants to have the bad news of letting a new hire go, explicit objective setting may require there to be new hires. These will generally apply to any manager. Unless the new hire is clearly stepping out of bounds or extremely negligent, it is going to be a slow process.
    - digisign 4y ago
      You seem to be aware it is irrational. Let poor developers go if they do not improve with training.
kube-system 4y ago
> You don't see accountants balancing books before they get hired. You sure do, and not just by a hiring manager's whim, but by law. Accountants have occupational licensing. > I think it's time we accept that the person we are talking to is who they say they are on their resume. This is a straw man, I have never "caught a liar" on an a coding exam. What they are helpful for doing is judging the quality of what it means to be "proficient in [x]". If there's anything I have learned from giving coding exams to candidates, it's that the ability of a candidate to verbally sell themselves in an interview has a weak correlation to their ability to produce quality work.
- vikingcaffiene 4y ago
  > Accountants have occupational licensing. Forgive my ignorance, but is this during every interview? If I am reading this right this is a certification they'd need to get which would be on their resume. Do they need to re-prove those skills every time?
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Sometimes they are even more often, as those licenses often have "continuing education" requirements to keep them active. For example, they expire every two years in California. https://www.calcpa.org/cpa-licensure/renewing-a-cpa-license/active-status-renewal https://www.calcpa.org/cpa-licensure/renewing-a-cpa-license/... But no, they don't happen "during interviews". My point is that there's less need to test people during their interviews for occupations with licensing, because they've already been tested before they even showed up for the interview. Depending on where you're at, you can't even legally call yourself an "accountant" without an occupational license. By contrast, anyone can legally call themselves a "software developer" and show up to an interview, which is why the need to evaluate their skills at that moment may be different.
    - vikingcaffiene 4y ago
      While I see where you are coming from but respectfully disagree with your conclusions. > My point is that there's less need to test people during their interviews for occupations with licensing, because they've already been tested before they even showed up for the interview. I mean past job experience and education are pretty good indicators? Is there some facet to the accounting certification process I am unaware of that filters out under performers? If my past few accountants are any indication, then no. :) All of that aside, I've not seen any data that suggests the hiring practices common in our field produce better outcomes than that which I am evangelizing for. Furthermore, those practices are common FAANG type companies which can offer much higher compensation packages than a typical startup. I assert that it's not only the right thing to do, it is also a _competitive advantage_ to have a streamlined, humane, hiring process.
ergocoder 4y ago
Interviews for other occupations are way way worse.
justinlloyd 4y ago
We don't do take home, leetcode, live coding either. We walk through past projects and ask very pointed questions. We ask about difficult problems we've faced in the past and how you might solve it. I role play a junior programmer describing a situation I have and then ask junior programmer level questions of how to solve the problem. You get to talk to two very senior software developers, and two very senior engineers in other roles, and the CEO (who is also highly technical). Once you get past the first screening call, I find you on social media, blogs, forums and read your posts, and see what questions you're asking on stackoverflow. Then we might move you to the next stage. All in all, you get a pre-screening from our recruiter (about 15 to 30 minutes), a screening call from a technical hiring manager (30 minutes), and then you talk three or four principal engineers (45 minutes each). This happens in days. The only person that doesn't talk to you that is highly technical will be the recruiter. If you're hired and start work, we watch what you're doing, mentor as necessary. If you have the right attitude and are coachable, so long as you can string together coherent lines of code then everything else can be taught.
- vikingcaffiene 4y ago
  This is the right way to go. If I were looking for a job right now I'd be hitting you up. I've said as much in a few other threads but it's not only the right thing to do, its a competitive advantage.
- ihateolives 4y ago
  > Once you get past the first screening call, I find you on social media, blogs, forums and read your posts, and see what questions you're asking on stackoverflow. And what if my social media presence is minimal or not public?
  - justinlloyd 4y ago
    It is possible that a candidate's social media presence is minimal or non-public, and that will lead to a dead end. But are you claiming that _your_ social media presence is minimal or non-public? Candidates are applying with their real names and a work history; not to sound creepy but they become very "findable" with that information. And I use that to judge "does this person know what he's talking about when it comes to his job?" I know you are a web developer, full stack but with a slant towards backend, like the Jetbrains applications, run a Thinkpad with Windows OS, have a beard (by your own admission), possibly live in a Nordic country but I don't think you are from there (UK I think, London area, or at least lived in London, or you live in the far North of Scotland or London has been a bit dark this year), are in your late 50's or early 60's, have a small family, like noisy keyboards, dislike Vim, absolutely loathe "Fn" keys, own a Mac that you ocassionally use, enjoyed Star Trek: TOS, run Android on a Samsung Galaxy (S3, Nexus 5, S10). You didn't wait for your resin in your table to reach flashover point. Found your reddit account, your stackoverflow, your github, and your abandoned twitter account, looks like you purged your Facebook account but didn't delete it. I am pretty sure you used to skateboard, enjoy riding a fixie bike and photography, possibly did some rock climbing in your youth. I may be off on some of the details, I only spent 20 minutes on it. Of course, I might be connecting two different sets of data points about two different people. Over-sized coloured mice are very clever if they can build the CMS for a real estate agent. My point is, people are "findable." Update: Pretty sure I found your LinkedIn.

anderber 4y ago

This sounds very forward thinking and I like it. Would you be willing to share a bit more on the process? What does it entail? In the past I was hired on just 2 interviews, and all we did was talk as peers. It felt comfortable and honest. It's the reason I said yes to switching positions.

vikingcaffiene 4y ago
Thanks! So, I'll say that we are still tweaking and trying to get things just right but, as of the time of me writing this, here is the process: - HR call 30 min. - Talk to hiring manager (me) 30 min. Get to know each other and feel out if there is a mutual fit. - Technical panel 1hr. Speak with several engineers on the team who share your discipline (front end or back end for example). Again no live coding. We just talk through stuff. - Talk to the team PM. 30 min. Get a sense of how you collaborate with our product team partners to build new features in our application. After that it's the usual comp negotiations, background, and reference checks. Assuming all that works out then hired! We're hiring so, if anyone is interested in finding out more, contact info is in my bio.
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  Sorry, but this just sounds very easy to bullshit. Unless you're doing real in depth quizzing of stuff people wouldn't know if they didn't work with it (e.g. in HFT, explaining what a potential implementation of std::string could be and what the tradeoffs of each design choice would be), generic backend principles are very easy to spew correct answers for without actually knowing how to code. How are you going to filter out people that just memorize the concepts for their chosen language and are good at talking but can't code for their life?
  - vikingcaffiene 4y ago
    > generic backend principles are very easy to spew correct answers for without actually knowing how to code I'm not sure I agree with this. IMO trying to get someone to explain the ins and outs of a particular facet of the technology your team works in is less effective than getting a sense of how a candidate architects their code and manages complexity. That type of "art more than a science" craftsmanship is not something you can easily fake in my experience. Maybe I'll be proven wrong. We shall see. So far I've had pretty good luck with the approach and gotten some really great teammates.
  - gorbachev 4y ago
    That's not my experience. It's almost always obvious whether the candidate really knows their stuff. They go into details, when you ask probing questions they don't revert back to generalities or repeat what they already said. Where this does not work, however, is interviewing junior developers. They don't really know anything at all yet (well, some do, but again, that's almost always quickly obvious), so you're hiring for potential rather than actual skills.
    - vikingcaffiene 4y ago
      Yeah you have to use the appropriate strategy for the interviewee. In the case of a junior, you are looking for potential and teachability as you said. You tailor your questions towards that angle. I've yet to see any take home or live coding challenge that answered those type of questions for me. All it told me is what I already knew: they were more junior and needed mentoring.

bobabob 4y ago

> I think it's time we accept that the person we are talking to is who they say they are on their resume. Yea because we live in a place where everyone is super honest and no one is going to try and take advantage of that to make 500k a year. IMO, it doesn't work. Talk is cheap. I wouldn't have a job if I had to talk my way into any company, I'm an introvert, I suck at communicating orally. But I can solve problems and write really good code. You throw problems at me during an interview and I'll solve them. Ultimately your company's code is not going to write itself.

daenz 4y ago
>Yea because we live in a place where everyone is super honest and no one is going to try and take advantage of that to make 500k a year. I would be THRILLED if I was put into some kind of a short probationary period, with limited access (and potentially restricted salary, with retroactive reimbursement) while I showed what I was worth. I personally have a hard time demonstrating that in short interviews, and it's only once I come in contact with the shape of the company's problems do I show my value. Imo it would lower the stress and paranoia on both sides over a candidate's fit.
- nelsondev 4y ago
  That can work for some, but imagine you already have a job, and time commitments, and it takes 5-10 companies to find a fit. Spending ~1-2 months is expensive.
  - gorbachev 4y ago
    If a company temporarily paid higher salary and covered your health insurance during this probationary period to account for the risk, I'd go for it. Otherwise, never.
vikingcaffiene 4y ago
> Yea because we live in a place where everyone is super honest and no one is going to try and take advantage of that to make 500k a year. You are right that there is more risk with this approach. I honestly think that its a better, more humane way to do things though. Anecdotally, I've hired a couple _really_ solid developers via this methodology. At least in my case, it's been working out well. As always, you try stuff and iterate. > I'm an introvert, I suck at communicating orally. I get it. So am I. Its actually very hard for me to reply to these comments b/c of my general aversion to putting myself out there! I don't think there's a one size fits all solution. At my company at least, being able to communicate effectively both orally and written, is important. We do a lot of pairing and documentation etc. Thats not for everyone. YMMV.

brian-armstrong 4y ago

Going through a few days of grueling interviews every few years is vastly preferable to spending a few years working alongside people who can't pull their own weight. Hiring managers are timid about letting people go and it can take an extraordinary amount of time to part ways with unproductive people.

vikingcaffiene 4y ago
> Hiring managers are timid about letting people go and it can take an extraordinary amount of time to part ways with unproductive people. With respect, it sounds like you had a bad manager. Underperforming teammates are your managers responsibility. They should be working to address that issue with said teammate or part ways. Sucks. Not fun. It's the job though.
- brian-armstrong 4y ago
  Sorry but your response is a No True Scotsman argument. It is understandable why irrational behavior applies here - sunk cost, nobody wants to have the bad news of letting a new hire go, explicit objective setting may require there to be new hires. These will generally apply to any manager. Unless the new hire is clearly stepping out of bounds or extremely negligent, it is going to be a slow process.
  - digisign 4y ago
    You seem to be aware it is irrational. Let poor developers go if they do not improve with training.

kube-system 4y ago

> You don't see accountants balancing books before they get hired. You sure do, and not just by a hiring manager's whim, but by law. Accountants have occupational licensing. > I think it's time we accept that the person we are talking to is who they say they are on their resume. This is a straw man, I have never "caught a liar" on an a coding exam. What they are helpful for doing is judging the quality of what it means to be "proficient in [x]". If there's anything I have learned from giving coding exams to candidates, it's that the ability of a candidate to verbally sell themselves in an interview has a weak correlation to their ability to produce quality work.

vikingcaffiene 4y ago
> Accountants have occupational licensing. Forgive my ignorance, but is this during every interview? If I am reading this right this is a certification they'd need to get which would be on their resume. Do they need to re-prove those skills every time?
- kube-system 4y ago
  Sometimes they are even more often, as those licenses often have "continuing education" requirements to keep them active. For example, they expire every two years in California. https://www.calcpa.org/cpa-licensure/renewing-a-cpa-license/active-status-renewal https://www.calcpa.org/cpa-licensure/renewing-a-cpa-license/... But no, they don't happen "during interviews". My point is that there's less need to test people during their interviews for occupations with licensing, because they've already been tested before they even showed up for the interview. Depending on where you're at, you can't even legally call yourself an "accountant" without an occupational license. By contrast, anyone can legally call themselves a "software developer" and show up to an interview, which is why the need to evaluate their skills at that moment may be different.
  - vikingcaffiene 4y ago
    While I see where you are coming from but respectfully disagree with your conclusions. > My point is that there's less need to test people during their interviews for occupations with licensing, because they've already been tested before they even showed up for the interview. I mean past job experience and education are pretty good indicators? Is there some facet to the accounting certification process I am unaware of that filters out under performers? If my past few accountants are any indication, then no. :) All of that aside, I've not seen any data that suggests the hiring practices common in our field produce better outcomes than that which I am evangelizing for. Furthermore, those practices are common FAANG type companies which can offer much higher compensation packages than a typical startup. I assert that it's not only the right thing to do, it is also a _competitive advantage_ to have a streamlined, humane, hiring process.

ergocoder 4y ago

Interviews for other occupations are way way worse.

justinlloyd 4y ago

We don't do take home, leetcode, live coding either. We walk through past projects and ask very pointed questions. We ask about difficult problems we've faced in the past and how you might solve it. I role play a junior programmer describing a situation I have and then ask junior programmer level questions of how to solve the problem. You get to talk to two very senior software developers, and two very senior engineers in other roles, and the CEO (who is also highly technical). Once you get past the first screening call, I find you on social media, blogs, forums and read your posts, and see what questions you're asking on stackoverflow. Then we might move you to the next stage. All in all, you get a pre-screening from our recruiter (about 15 to 30 minutes), a screening call from a technical hiring manager (30 minutes), and then you talk three or four principal engineers (45 minutes each). This happens in days. The only person that doesn't talk to you that is highly technical will be the recruiter. If you're hired and start work, we watch what you're doing, mentor as necessary. If you have the right attitude and are coachable, so long as you can string together coherent lines of code then everything else can be taught.

vikingcaffiene 4y ago
This is the right way to go. If I were looking for a job right now I'd be hitting you up. I've said as much in a few other threads but it's not only the right thing to do, its a competitive advantage.
ihateolives 4y ago
> Once you get past the first screening call, I find you on social media, blogs, forums and read your posts, and see what questions you're asking on stackoverflow. And what if my social media presence is minimal or not public?
- justinlloyd 4y ago
  It is possible that a candidate's social media presence is minimal or non-public, and that will lead to a dead end. But are you claiming that _your_ social media presence is minimal or non-public? Candidates are applying with their real names and a work history; not to sound creepy but they become very "findable" with that information. And I use that to judge "does this person know what he's talking about when it comes to his job?" I know you are a web developer, full stack but with a slant towards backend, like the Jetbrains applications, run a Thinkpad with Windows OS, have a beard (by your own admission), possibly live in a Nordic country but I don't think you are from there (UK I think, London area, or at least lived in London, or you live in the far North of Scotland or London has been a bit dark this year), are in your late 50's or early 60's, have a small family, like noisy keyboards, dislike Vim, absolutely loathe "Fn" keys, own a Mac that you ocassionally use, enjoyed Star Trek: TOS, run Android on a Samsung Galaxy (S3, Nexus 5, S10). You didn't wait for your resin in your table to reach flashover point. Found your reddit account, your stackoverflow, your github, and your abandoned twitter account, looks like you purged your Facebook account but didn't delete it. I am pretty sure you used to skateboard, enjoy riding a fixie bike and photography, possibly did some rock climbing in your youth. I may be off on some of the details, I only spent 20 minutes on it. Of course, I might be connecting two different sets of data points about two different people. Over-sized coloured mice are very clever if they can build the CMS for a real estate agent. My point is, people are "findable." Update: Pretty sure I found your LinkedIn.