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I have a difficult time understanding this. I was a kid that was rebellious, but in a way that didn't get me in trouble. When I read stories like this I get an

I have a difficult time understanding this. I was a kid that was rebellious, but in a way that didn't get me in trouble. When I read stories like this I get an intense feeling of fighting back, or at the very least, hold everyone that participated in contempt for the rest of my life. I am certain that if my parents had done something like this I would never have forgiven them. Nor would I have forgiven anyone that works in a place like this.

erdos4d 4y ago
Reading the comments here, I think that is exactly what has happened in many cases.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
wolverine876 4y ago
At a certain level it's not hard to understand, in that it's predictable: Power corrupts, and you can depend on it. People with power over vulnerable human beings, and with no check on their power, can be generally predicted to abuse it. Just look for those situations and I predict that you will often find it. (That's one reason transparency and openness are so important.) Look at child sex abuse scandals: Who do they abuse? Vulnerable children without resources to fight back. Have you ever heard of such a thing happening to the children of the powerful? At Penn State University, at least some of the victims were in a program for parentless children (I don't remember if they were orphans, foster kids, etc.). IIRC, one had been abused elsewhere and was kicked out when he reported it - what could he do this time? You know what the abusers say: 'Nobody will believe you.' And he's a child, alone in this situation.
- throwaway999t 4y ago
  Tangential side note I have to mention about that Penn State thing. I was at the uni from 2011 to 2015 and my father served on the facility senate. Graham Spanier drew a salary from the university DESPITE being complicit in the cover-up until 2017. He merely was “removed from leadership.” It’s on us as a society to punish misuse of power more effectively. The consequences for misuse are often minor. https://apnews.com/article/north-america-us-news-ap-top-news-jerry-sandusky-graham-spanier-d621078f9cb6453a9c1c8a372f2c793f https://apnews.com/article/north-america-us-news-ap-top-news...
  - pc86 4y ago
    Since this account is ten minutes old I can only assume you made it to make this post anonymously, so I feel obliged to tell you that if one were inclined it would be trivially easy to find someone who graduated in 2015 with a father/parent in some form of [facility,faculty?] leadership. I don't think you're saying anything here that needs that kind of protection, but just something to keep in mind.
    - daccaw240 4y ago
      I appreciate the thoughtful advice. You probably could figure out who I am, but I’m a LONG time lurker and the comment was docile enough. Faculty senate is 200 across all 20+ branch campuses and rotates every year. The caution is just to make automated scrapping of accounts harder. There are some truly cowardly people and malicious incentive structures there… but I met some good folk too I suppose. Shout out to the good professors there with the patience to do the right thing. They don’t always win. WE ARE (human traffickers?). <:(
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > Graham Spanier drew a salary from the university DESPITE being complicit in the cover-up until 2017. He merely was “removed from leadership.” It’s on us as a society to punish misuse of power more effectively. Weren't Penn State U board members who punished the wrongdoing removed from office by their constituents?
- sandworm101 4y ago
  >> Have you ever heard of such a thing happening to the children of the powerful? Yes. It happens all the time. In some areas of high society, in the recent past, it was downright common. Look into the history of British boys schools. I myself attended a British-style boarding school. While I never witnessed anything personally, a few years after I graduated my former math teacher was fired in disgrace. I never got the full story beyond "he had fail to register with appropriate authorities and so was let go". The reason it seems that the children and powerful are immune is only because such issues rarely becomes public. Poor people report crimes to the police. Rich people talk to their lawyers and the issue is settled between the families.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    Just a side note. I don't know how the sex offender registry works in the UK, but in the US, it can be rather punitive. People can be placed on a sex offender registry for sleeping with their 16 yr old girlfriend/boyfriend on the day of their 18th birthday. Some have been convicted as sex offenders for simply receiving nude photos from their underaged significant other. I have even heard of cases where prosecutors have tried to try underage kids as adults for having nude photos of themselves on their phone. This can then follow them the rest of their life. Being fired for failing to notify your employer could be a case as mundane as that. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/20/teen-prosecuted-naked-images-himself-phone-selfies https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/201...
    - sandworm101 4y ago
      He was fired when they discovered that he had not registered. They discovered that after investigating him in response to another "situation".
  - droppedframe 4y ago
    I went to the Leys school in Cambridge as a border, and it was by far the worst experience of my life. I was burnt out for a decade and I turn 40 this year, only recently having gotten over the resentment. Much of this article rang familiar. Those British boarding schools are intended for upper class misbehaving teens who won’t conform. There’s no intent to educate, they’re trying to ‘break’ the pupils. A common tactic to sidestep accountability is to give authority to the older pupils. I can’t even think about it without getting angry and upset. They beat me to the point my whole upper body was black. I twice attempted suicide in the dorm only to be stopped and beaten more. I was sleep deprived to the point I could hardly stand. It was freezing at night and the older boys in the neighboring dorm made it a habit of sneaking in and hitting us (hard) with bats and hockey sticks. Enough, I choose not to think about it anymore. But I was unable to function in British society after that. My hatred for the people was to the point I couldn’t even speak. To this day I refuse to buy British product. I left a few years later and I’ll never go back to England.
- unityByFreedom 4y ago
  "Power corrupts" may explain the abusive nature of "tough love" programs, but it does not explain how the teen became troubled in the first place. Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.
  - noduerme 4y ago
    Most of the kids I knew who ended up in these programs were nowhere near as f*cked up as their parents - even before those parents handed their children to abusive thugs.
    - unityByFreedom 4y ago
      Right, so the question becomes, how do you break that cycle? These kids may grow up planning to be different from their parents. But when you become a parent, "muscle memory" can kick in. You end up parenting as yours did because that's what you know.
      - noduerme 4y ago
        This really is the question. Not to be crass but at least 3 of the kids I knew were grabbed at night and taken to these places broke the cycle by committing suicide. I was tempted to respond to the Englishman in this thread who posted a heartbreaking story by asking whether he/they thought this was still having ramifications forward in British society, but then I thought, well it's an extension of 400 years of beatings and rape in the British Navy so no shit it's still a cycle. A quick look at the Russian Army... or religious communities in West Texas... Uh, how do you break the cycle. Maybe one out of ten people who are abused have the strength to see the viciousness of it and reclaim some part of themselves instead of repeating the abuse, and write about it for the NYT. The rest go to alcoholism, self-harm, anger, and repeating the same on their kids. The only thing that's sort of worked to break these kinds of chains of abuse is when NGOs and governments go after them and expose the evil. That has had some effect on the Catholic Church, and a little effect on the worst excesses of the prison system in some states. The 20-30% of people in this country who were lucky enough not to suffer some sort of abuse [edit: Or who consider it wrong] are a minority, but thankfully in control of most of the media and civic institutions (for now: When they're not, it looks like Russia). So I guess the best way to break this particular chain is at the weakest link, which is these kinds of "schools". [Edit: Just re-reading your earlier response in another chain, I should clarify that I consider this type of discipline itself to be a form of abuse, often including sexual abuse. But in any case, breaking one chain or another is equally difficult when someone has been subjected to it and is now subjecting their children to it.]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
unityByFreedom 4y ago
The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then they can gradually find their way towards things that will definitely get attention, like getting into mom's makeup, throwing around food or dirty diapers or whatever. Today, many psychologists suggest using positive discipline [2] to reinforce good behavior while weaning bad behaviors. Often a family might have one "good" kid who excels in school while another struggles. Why is that? Aforementioned psychologists suggest it is because each kid finds a way to "stand out" in their family, and families who dote on the good child may reinforce the chosen behavior of both children. In your case, maybe your family did effectively use positive discipline, or you were an only child, or you were the "good" one in your family. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Dreikurs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Dreikurs [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discipline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discipline
- wolverine876 4y ago
  IIRC a tenet of developmental psychology that the worst thing for children is neglect - it's worse than abuse (and that isn't downplaying abuse in any way), because the abused child is getting attention. Children are absolutely dependent on their parents for survival (literally, food, water, shelter, protection, safety), for understanding the world, for learning. Neglect, the absence of parenting, is terrifying.
  - unityByFreedom 4y ago
    A toddler can get your attention by breaking something if you neglect them. Physical abuse of a toddler is far worse and teaches them to internalize, rather than express, their emotions.
  - selfhifive 4y ago
    I was neglected and it has made things difficult for me. I learnt how to smile by practicing with a mirror and have no reference point for what a genuine relationship is. Never been hugged and still am terrified of getting touched affectionately. Anti-social and feel lightyears behind my peers in social aptitude. Don't know how to respond to affection and tenderness and have responded with angry outbursts in the past. It's a hole that takes some getting out of.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

erdos4d 4y ago

Reading the comments here, I think that is exactly what has happened in many cases.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

wolverine876 4y ago

At a certain level it's not hard to understand, in that it's predictable: Power corrupts, and you can depend on it. People with power over vulnerable human beings, and with no check on their power, can be generally predicted to abuse it. Just look for those situations and I predict that you will often find it. (That's one reason transparency and openness are so important.) Look at child sex abuse scandals: Who do they abuse? Vulnerable children without resources to fight back. Have you ever heard of such a thing happening to the children of the powerful? At Penn State University, at least some of the victims were in a program for parentless children (I don't remember if they were orphans, foster kids, etc.). IIRC, one had been abused elsewhere and was kicked out when he reported it - what could he do this time? You know what the abusers say: 'Nobody will believe you.' And he's a child, alone in this situation.

throwaway999t 4y ago
Tangential side note I have to mention about that Penn State thing. I was at the uni from 2011 to 2015 and my father served on the facility senate. Graham Spanier drew a salary from the university DESPITE being complicit in the cover-up until 2017. He merely was “removed from leadership.” It’s on us as a society to punish misuse of power more effectively. The consequences for misuse are often minor. https://apnews.com/article/north-america-us-news-ap-top-news-jerry-sandusky-graham-spanier-d621078f9cb6453a9c1c8a372f2c793f https://apnews.com/article/north-america-us-news-ap-top-news...
- pc86 4y ago
  Since this account is ten minutes old I can only assume you made it to make this post anonymously, so I feel obliged to tell you that if one were inclined it would be trivially easy to find someone who graduated in 2015 with a father/parent in some form of [facility,faculty?] leadership. I don't think you're saying anything here that needs that kind of protection, but just something to keep in mind.
  - daccaw240 4y ago
    I appreciate the thoughtful advice. You probably could figure out who I am, but I’m a LONG time lurker and the comment was docile enough. Faculty senate is 200 across all 20+ branch campuses and rotates every year. The caution is just to make automated scrapping of accounts harder. There are some truly cowardly people and malicious incentive structures there… but I met some good folk too I suppose. Shout out to the good professors there with the patience to do the right thing. They don’t always win. WE ARE (human traffickers?). <:(
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > Graham Spanier drew a salary from the university DESPITE being complicit in the cover-up until 2017. He merely was “removed from leadership.” It’s on us as a society to punish misuse of power more effectively. Weren't Penn State U board members who punished the wrongdoing removed from office by their constituents?
sandworm101 4y ago
>> Have you ever heard of such a thing happening to the children of the powerful? Yes. It happens all the time. In some areas of high society, in the recent past, it was downright common. Look into the history of British boys schools. I myself attended a British-style boarding school. While I never witnessed anything personally, a few years after I graduated my former math teacher was fired in disgrace. I never got the full story beyond "he had fail to register with appropriate authorities and so was let go". The reason it seems that the children and powerful are immune is only because such issues rarely becomes public. Poor people report crimes to the police. Rich people talk to their lawyers and the issue is settled between the families.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  Just a side note. I don't know how the sex offender registry works in the UK, but in the US, it can be rather punitive. People can be placed on a sex offender registry for sleeping with their 16 yr old girlfriend/boyfriend on the day of their 18th birthday. Some have been convicted as sex offenders for simply receiving nude photos from their underaged significant other. I have even heard of cases where prosecutors have tried to try underage kids as adults for having nude photos of themselves on their phone. This can then follow them the rest of their life. Being fired for failing to notify your employer could be a case as mundane as that. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/20/teen-prosecuted-naked-images-himself-phone-selfies https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/201...
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    He was fired when they discovered that he had not registered. They discovered that after investigating him in response to another "situation".
- droppedframe 4y ago
  I went to the Leys school in Cambridge as a border, and it was by far the worst experience of my life. I was burnt out for a decade and I turn 40 this year, only recently having gotten over the resentment. Much of this article rang familiar. Those British boarding schools are intended for upper class misbehaving teens who won’t conform. There’s no intent to educate, they’re trying to ‘break’ the pupils. A common tactic to sidestep accountability is to give authority to the older pupils. I can’t even think about it without getting angry and upset. They beat me to the point my whole upper body was black. I twice attempted suicide in the dorm only to be stopped and beaten more. I was sleep deprived to the point I could hardly stand. It was freezing at night and the older boys in the neighboring dorm made it a habit of sneaking in and hitting us (hard) with bats and hockey sticks. Enough, I choose not to think about it anymore. But I was unable to function in British society after that. My hatred for the people was to the point I couldn’t even speak. To this day I refuse to buy British product. I left a few years later and I’ll never go back to England.
unityByFreedom 4y ago
"Power corrupts" may explain the abusive nature of "tough love" programs, but it does not explain how the teen became troubled in the first place. Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.
- noduerme 4y ago
  Most of the kids I knew who ended up in these programs were nowhere near as f*cked up as their parents - even before those parents handed their children to abusive thugs.
  - unityByFreedom 4y ago
    Right, so the question becomes, how do you break that cycle? These kids may grow up planning to be different from their parents. But when you become a parent, "muscle memory" can kick in. You end up parenting as yours did because that's what you know.
    - noduerme 4y ago
      This really is the question. Not to be crass but at least 3 of the kids I knew were grabbed at night and taken to these places broke the cycle by committing suicide. I was tempted to respond to the Englishman in this thread who posted a heartbreaking story by asking whether he/they thought this was still having ramifications forward in British society, but then I thought, well it's an extension of 400 years of beatings and rape in the British Navy so no shit it's still a cycle. A quick look at the Russian Army... or religious communities in West Texas... Uh, how do you break the cycle. Maybe one out of ten people who are abused have the strength to see the viciousness of it and reclaim some part of themselves instead of repeating the abuse, and write about it for the NYT. The rest go to alcoholism, self-harm, anger, and repeating the same on their kids. The only thing that's sort of worked to break these kinds of chains of abuse is when NGOs and governments go after them and expose the evil. That has had some effect on the Catholic Church, and a little effect on the worst excesses of the prison system in some states. The 20-30% of people in this country who were lucky enough not to suffer some sort of abuse [edit: Or who consider it wrong] are a minority, but thankfully in control of most of the media and civic institutions (for now: When they're not, it looks like Russia). So I guess the best way to break this particular chain is at the weakest link, which is these kinds of "schools". [Edit: Just re-reading your earlier response in another chain, I should clarify that I consider this type of discipline itself to be a form of abuse, often including sexual abuse. But in any case, breaking one chain or another is equally difficult when someone has been subjected to it and is now subjecting their children to it.]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

unityByFreedom 4y ago

The author writes, > I was reckless, taking my mom’s car out for joy rides without permission, skipping class That may be after 16 years of doing outrageous things to get attention at home. Some psychologists in the 1950s [1] suggested kids will do whatever gets them attention while striving for a way to participate in the family. That can include bad behavior. If they don't receive attention for good behavior, then they can gradually find their way towards things that will definitely get attention, like getting into mom's makeup, throwing around food or dirty diapers or whatever. Today, many psychologists suggest using positive discipline [2] to reinforce good behavior while weaning bad behaviors. Often a family might have one "good" kid who excels in school while another struggles. Why is that? Aforementioned psychologists suggest it is because each kid finds a way to "stand out" in their family, and families who dote on the good child may reinforce the chosen behavior of both children. In your case, maybe your family did effectively use positive discipline, or you were an only child, or you were the "good" one in your family. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Dreikurs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Dreikurs [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discipline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discipline

wolverine876 4y ago
IIRC a tenet of developmental psychology that the worst thing for children is neglect - it's worse than abuse (and that isn't downplaying abuse in any way), because the abused child is getting attention. Children are absolutely dependent on their parents for survival (literally, food, water, shelter, protection, safety), for understanding the world, for learning. Neglect, the absence of parenting, is terrifying.
- unityByFreedom 4y ago
  A toddler can get your attention by breaking something if you neglect them. Physical abuse of a toddler is far worse and teaches them to internalize, rather than express, their emotions.
- selfhifive 4y ago
  I was neglected and it has made things difficult for me. I learnt how to smile by practicing with a mirror and have no reference point for what a genuine relationship is. Never been hugged and still am terrified of getting touched affectionately. Anti-social and feel lightyears behind my peers in social aptitude. Don't know how to respond to affection and tenderness and have responded with angry outbursts in the past. It's a hole that takes some getting out of.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]